The Indian Tejas

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wp2000

Member
Hey I had given references for the points and if you see according ADA specs it is 6500kg empty weight + 3000kg fuel
In that case, if the Clean Take off Weight is 9500kg (6500kg empty weight + 3000kg fuel), that means LCA can take off without a pilot.

So all I was saying is that these figures actually got a lot of grey areas, unless you know the exact definitions, it would not be a good idea to compare planes. In fact, if you only look at these figures superficially, LCA's design does not look good because other similar light planes perform better even with the same engine.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
In that case, if the Clean Take off Weight is 9500kg (6500kg empty weight + 3000kg fuel), that means LCA can take off without a pilot.

So all I was saying is that these figures actually got a lot of grey areas, unless you know the exact definitions, it would not be a good idea to compare planes. In fact, if you only look at these figures superficially, LCA's design does not look good because other similar light planes perform better even with the same engine.
Now check this, these photos are taken from ILA2008 the 9th one speaks about LCA specs and also 20th and 23rd speaks about specs of LCH and MTA respectively. 26th is for Air Launched brahMos

http://foto.vg.no/show_image.php?bi...AYAAAA102AD&bcsi_scan_filename=show_image.php
 
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wp2000

Member

niteshkjain

New Member
Then it's clearly contradicting to the figures shown in Singapore. If this figure is corrrect, there's absolutely no need to get another engine, GE404 should do fine for LCA.
And if you see the spec mentions engine as GE404f213 no IN20 as the engine which is supposed to power the LCA. All I am humbly trying to say is that this thrust issues limited weapons and all are based on some "unnamed source". So I feel like lets wait and watch:). By seeing the reports of summer trial and all seems like LCA is doing well.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Then it's clearly contradicting to the figures shown in Singapore. If this figure is corrrect, there's absolutely no need to get another engine, GE404 should do fine for LCA.
You may never know if the figures are fudged.

Afterall, different figures have been surfacing for public consumption for the past 20 years.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
The top AoA of F-16 is 26 degrees (the FBW does not allow the pilot to exceed that). LCA reached 20 degrees in clean configuration during 2007 and is doing even worst with an AoA of 17 degrees now. Heck, it is even 4 full degrees short of the minimum AoA of 21 degrees required by Indian Airforce. You can forget it doing 26 degrees with the F404 IN 20 engines and we are talking about 40 planes !!

Furthermore, the last report of Aero India 2007 said that LCA was doing 5.4g. There is no further news if LCA has ever pulled more Gs then that.

Even if LCA has pulled 6gs to date (Will appreciate if niteshkjain can post the link since he/she has access to vast data on news articles which I dont), it is still short of the minimum gs the bombers of USAF can pull.

Even the K8 trainer can pull 7.3 gs !!
 
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niteshkjain

New Member
The top AoA of F-16 is 26 degrees (the FBW does not allow the pilot to exceed that). LCA reached 20 degrees in clean configuration during 2007 and is doing even worst with an AoA of 17 degrees now. Heck, it is even 4 full degrees short of the minimum AoA of 21 degrees required by Indian Airforce. You can forget it doing 26 degrees with the F404 IN 20 engines and we are talking about 40 planes !!

Furthermore, the last report of Aero India 2007 said that LCA was doing 5.4g. There is no further news if LCA has ever pulled more Gs then that.

Even if LCA has pulled 6gs to date (Will appreciate if niteshkjain can post the link since he/she has access to vast data on news articles which I dont), it is still short of the minimum gs the bombers of USAF can pull.

Even the K8 trainer can pull 7.3 gs !!
The only explanation for the g's pulled I am having is that ADA has not opened up the full test envelop. Will try to dig up the details and post.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
This is for Mr. Aliph

http://frontierindia.net/tejas-pulls-gs
Tejas pulls G’s

Written on June 25, 2007 – 2:37 pm | by FIDSNS |
Tejas Prototype Vehicles 2 and 3 (PV-2 and PV-3) are in Arakkonam Air base for sea level flight testing and opening operational flight envelope. Air cmde RKS Bhaduria, Wg Cdr RR. Tyagi and Group Captain N.Harish are spearheading the flight envelope opening tests. Captain JA. Maolankar of Indian Navy too is involved in the sea level flight testing.

One of the LCA prototype Vehicle’s has pulled 6 G’s.

Meanwhile, since the LCA Tejas has already achieved 1.2 mach, the flight testing team is gunning for 1.8 mach speed. It is not clear if it has to be achieved in Arakkonam Air base of back at home in Bangalore.
Well, this type of thing is common in testing phase of FBW fighters. keep in mind that this is a software issue rather than an aerodynamics issue. The control laws are being checked and fine tuned iteratively with each incremental expansion of the flight envelope. Basically this means the LCA team has taken a slow but sure path to completing flight trials, to reduce chances of any crashes that will jeopardise the programme.
Hope that helps.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
This is for Mr. Aliph



Well, this type of thing is common in testing phase of FBW fighters. keep in mind that this is a software issue rather than an aerodynamics issue. The control laws are being checked and fine tuned iteratively with each incremental expansion of the flight envelope. Basically this means the LCA team has taken a slow but sure path to completing flight trials, to reduce chances of any crashes that will jeopardise the programme.
Hope that helps.
g issue.

It is very interesting to see that one of the LCAs pulled 6gs in " clean configuration" last year somewhere in or before 25th of June, 2007 ! It's angle of attack too at that time was reaching 20 degrees however, with the addition of heavier engine, fuel tanks and a missile or two, its performance has deteriorated decreasing the AoA to 17 degrees and raising serious questions on LCAs ability to pull 6g in its current form.

Basically, LCA as of today stands somewhere between the basic trainer Mushak and medium trainer K8. Mushak can also pull 6+g and K8 can pull 7.3g. I stand corrected that LCA as of today is no better then a trainer.

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/DefenceProduction/PAC/Mushak_SuperMushak_Manufacturing.htm

FBW issue

From the 2004 ADA report: (Page 10)

In the final MC CSCI testing 60 errors were detected in about 100,000
lines of Ada source code and an analysis of the type of errors detected is as
follows:

Type of Errors Percentage of total errors
System Design 32
SRS 33
Design/Code/CSC Test 20
ICD (1553B Interface Control Document) 10
Others 5

http://www.bitsoftsystems.com/mydocs/Avionics%20Mission%20Computer%20Case%20Study.pdf

The only thing that comes to mind is that the LCA FBW is nothing but rubbish, and not even compared to a mechanical system which would not have this many errors since mechanism don’t used software !

This was then in 2004 and you say that it is still having software issue. Which means that the bugs still have not been fixed even after 4 years ?

Aerodynamics Issue

The plane is a two axis delta plane in the league of 1960s vintage mirage 3/5. All latest deltas have three axis. Even the upgraded Mirages of Israel (kfir) and South Afirca (cheetah) had three axis through the adds on of canards which mind you are all retired.

All latest deltas such as Grippen, J-10, Typhoon and Rafael have three axis. It is already obsolete by today's standards. Only thing worthy in LCA is the avionics provided if the integeration is successull in the end as there are still quite a few systems to be added and intergerated.

LCA has no elevator. What the Indians did they added the aerilon+elevator and came up with huge elevons and the rudder. Thus, only two control surfaces.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/airplane.html

Just to give you a better idea :

The separate differential movement of the aerilons between left/right wings on a delta wing (LCA), elevator and aerilons can not be operated differentially opposite to each other on the same wing, the 2 segments will operate in the same direction on the same wing! Hence they are not a separate control surface as elevators (horizontal tail) + flaperons (wing) + rudder (vertical tail), but while the outboard trailing edge aerilons is augmented slightly with a higher angle (that is the reason they are segmented) against the inboard trailing edge elevators give superior roll rate on a delta wing A/C’s velocity vector as compared to the cropped tailed delta wing (F-16/JF-17) due to the extreme outboard trailing edge is fixed for wing tip missile pylon, also due to higher aspect ratio wings, hence high roll rates will damage wing structure.

Never the less! the JF-17 uses the differential movement of the opposite side of the horizontal tail to perform roll rates called “Tailerons” and collectively as “elevators” but the JF-17 also has an extra control surface on the wings “falperons” which operate differentially opposite to each other between left/right wings, giving it 2 surfaces which can operate differentially opposite to each other on each (left/right) wing and (left/right) horizontal tail and also opposite between 2 separate control surface horizontal tail and wing. Horizontal Tail + flaperons combined provide high STR higher AOA and much more lift. As oppose to one surface (wing) of the LCA “ with segmented elevons” add the rudder on both a/c’s to make it 3 on the JF-17 and 2 on LCA !!!

This is the reason most modern delta wings are introducing canards as a separate control surface to supplement the absent horizontal tail for extra lift. And the SU-35 has canards + horizontal/vertical tails + wings, making it a tri-plane configuration. Even a twin fin/rudder combination is a single control surface but will augment manoeuvrability much superior to a single fin/rudder stabiliser !

So if you read this with an open mind. You will understand that LCA's design is grossly obsolete by today's standards. It was a good design when envisioned but not anymore. It needs major and I mean really major redesigning to be able to hold to its own.
 

Rish

New Member
g issue.

It is very interesting to see that one of the LCAs pulled 6gs in " clean configuration" last year somewhere in or before 25th of June, 2007 ! It's angle of attack too at that time was reaching 20 degrees however, with the addition of heavier engine, fuel tanks and a missile or two, its performance has deteriorated decreasing the AoA to 17 degrees and raising serious questions on LCAs ability to pull 6g in its current form.

Basically, LCA as of today stands somewhere between the basic trainer Mushak and medium trainer K8. Mushak can also pull 6+g and K8 can pull 7.3g. I stand corrected that LCA as of today is no better then a trainer.

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/DefenceProduction/PAC/Mushak_SuperMushak_Manufacturing.htm

FBW issue

From the 2004 ADA report: (Page 10)

In the final MC CSCI testing 60 errors were detected in about 100,000
lines of Ada source code and an analysis of the type of errors detected is as
follows:

Type of Errors Percentage of total errors
System Design 32
SRS 33
Design/Code/CSC Test 20
ICD (1553B Interface Control Document) 10
Others 5

http://www.bitsoftsystems.com/mydocs/Avionics%20Mission%20Computer%20Case%20Study.pdf

The only thing that comes to mind is that the LCA FBW is nothing but rubbish, and not even compared to a mechanical system which would not have this many errors since mechanism don’t used software !

This was then in 2004 and you say that it is still having software issue. Which means that the bugs still have not been fixed even after 4 years ?

Aerodynamics Issue

The plane is a two axis delta plane in the league of 1960s vintage mirage 3/5. All latest deltas have three axis. Even the upgraded Mirages of Israel (kfir) and South Afirca (cheetah) had three axis through the adds on of canards which mind you are all retired.

All latest deltas such as Grippen, J-10, Typhoon and Rafael have three axis. It is already obsolete by today's standards. Only thing worthy in LCA is the avionics provided if the integeration is successull in the end as there are still quite a few systems to be added and intergerated.

LCA has no elevator. What the Indians did they added the aerilon+elevator and came up with huge elevons and the rudder. Thus, only two control surfaces.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/airplane.html

Just to give you a better idea :

The separate differential movement of the aerilons between left/right wings on a delta wing (LCA), elevator and aerilons can not be operated differentially opposite to each other on the same wing, the 2 segments will operate in the same direction on the same wing! Hence they are not a separate control surface as elevators (horizontal tail) + flaperons (wing) + rudder (vertical tail), but while the outboard trailing edge aerilons is augmented slightly with a higher angle (that is the reason they are segmented) against the inboard trailing edge elevators give superior roll rate on a delta wing A/C’s velocity vector as compared to the cropped tailed delta wing (F-16/JF-17) due to the extreme outboard trailing edge is fixed for wing tip missile pylon, also due to higher aspect ratio wings, hence high roll rates will damage wing structure.

Never the less! the JF-17 uses the differential movement of the opposite side of the horizontal tail to perform roll rates called “Tailerons” and collectively as “elevators” but the JF-17 also has an extra control surface on the wings “falperons” which operate differentially opposite to each other between left/right wings, giving it 2 surfaces which can operate differentially opposite to each other on each (left/right) wing and (left/right) horizontal tail and also opposite between 2 separate control surface horizontal tail and wing. Horizontal Tail + flaperons combined provide high STR higher AOA and much more lift. As oppose to one surface (wing) of the LCA “ with segmented elevons” add the rudder on both a/c’s to make it 3 on the JF-17 and 2 on LCA !!!

This is the reason most modern delta wings are introducing canards as a separate control surface to supplement the absent horizontal tail for extra lift. And the SU-35 has canards + horizontal/vertical tails + wings, making it a tri-plane configuration. Even a twin fin/rudder combination is a single control surface but will augment manoeuvrability much superior to a single fin/rudder stabiliser !

So if you read this with an open mind. You will understand that LCA's design is grossly obsolete by today's standards. It was a good design when envisioned but not anymore. It needs major and I mean really major redesigning to be able to hold to its own.
This is a public forum to discuss military hardware unbiased. Please do not bring your animosities into the discussion. Thanks. Btw, are you an aerospace engineer? Just wondering.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
Latest updates on ADA site about LCA

http://www.ada.gov.in/index.html

LCA-Tejas has completed 891 Test Flights successfully. (07-June-08).

* LCA has completed 891 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-275,PV1-167,PV2-102,PV3-87,LSP1-27).
* 87th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 06th June 08.

* 102nd flight of Tejas PV2 Ferry flight from Nagpur occurred on 04th June 08.
* 86th flight of Tejas PV3 Ferry flight from Nagpur occurred on 04th June 08.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
This is a public forum to discuss military hardware unbiased. Please do not bring your animosities into the discussion. Thanks. Btw, are you an aerospace engineer? Just wondering.
It will be more helpfull if you counter my claims instead of labelling me as biased just because you are incapable of handling the truth.

Disucssing it is what I am doing. LCA as of today is no better then a trainer in the league of Mushak and K8.

Just because I am not praising LCA and doing wah wah because it has done 891 flights makes me biased ? Great !! There are other factors to consider too other then taking off and landing a plane !!

Let me give one more shot explaining it as easy as possible such that even a kid (under 14) can understand.

1. The rudder is used to control the position of the nose of the aircraft.

2. Aircraft turns are caused by banking the aircraft to one side using ailerons.

3. Elevators are normally at the rear of an aircraft, which control the aircraft's orientation by changing the pitch of the aircraft, and so also the angle of attack of the wing. Since the Elevator is missing in LCA, Therefore, it is having problems already reaching the desired Aangle of Attack : AoA (See post 226) to enlighten yourself. It amazes me that DRDO couldnt see that coming !!

Sometimes in aircrafts such as Rafale, Eurofighter, J-10 and Grippen the elevator is in the front, ahead of the wing normally called as a canard.

So the LCA do not have separate elevator or third axis. It is missing. What the LCA did is combined two control surfaces (Elevator and airelons) into elevons (Examples being F-117 and F-4D; both of which have been retired), thus, reducing the control surfaces to just two. Though, it can still do everything that a three axis plane can do but the aircraft's manaouverability/performance and combat worthiness becomes highly questionable.

and it shouldnt be no surprise to anyone that due to these very factors, first 40 LCAs are already declared incapable of doing combat !!
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Guys this thread is asking for a one week lock. Be careful.

No direct accusations on each other. If anyone has problem with someone he should PM the mods.

I don't think its wrong to criticize LCA, or even JF-17 and J-10 or even any other aircraft for that matter, as long as you are doing so on technical and technological basis rather than personal bias. If anyone dislikes it he should counter argue that person - of course it should be on technical, technological or logical level. But to abuse one another just because you have no technical or technological knowledge and cant defend yourself is unacceptable.

Aliph; I don't think we need to talk again in the PM. You are sensible enough to know how to deal with things and behave in a thread.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
It will be more helpfull if you counter my claims instead of labelling me as biased just because you are incapable of handling the truth.

Disucssing it is what I am doing. LCA as of today is no better then a trainer in the league of Mushak and K8.

Just because I am not praising LCA and doing wah wah because it has done 891 flights makes me biased ? Great !! There are other factors to consider too other then taking off and landing a plane !!

Let me give one more shot explaining it as easy as possible such that even a kid (under 14) can understand.

1. The rudder is used to control the position of the nose of the aircraft.

2. Aircraft turns are caused by banking the aircraft to one side using ailerons.

3. Elevators are normally at the rear of an aircraft, which control the aircraft's orientation by changing the pitch of the aircraft, and so also the angle of attack of the wing. Since the Elevator is missing in LCA, Therefore, it is having problems already reaching the desired Aangle of Attack : AoA (See post 226) to enlighten yourself. It amazes me that DRDO couldnt see that coming !!

Sometimes in aircrafts such as Rafale, Eurofighter, J-10 and Grippen the elevator is in the front, ahead of the wing normally called as a canard.

So the LCA do not have separate elevator or third axis. It is missing. What the LCA did is combined two control surfaces (Elevator and airelons) into elevons (Examples being F-117 and F-4D; both of which have been retired), thus, reducing the control surfaces to just two. Though, it can still do everything that a three axis plane can do but the aircraft's manaouverability/performance and combat worthiness becomes highly questionable.

and it shouldnt be no surprise to anyone that due to these very factors, first 40 LCAs are already declared incapable of doing combat !!
These were the 3 axis of motion for the LCA..say that na, instead of just saying 2-axis and 3-axis delta..just because the LCA does'nt have elevators like the JF-17 or canards like the Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon does'nt mean that its any less maneuverable in pitch up motions. this is NOT a reason for any issue with the LCA.

if you're referring to pitch, yaw and roll, then elevons are a perfectly acceptable solution. look at the Mirage-2000 for confirmation. it has a fantastic roll-rate.

the difficulty with testing the FBW of the LCA is that its all digital in all axes, so opening the envelope is that much more difficult and requires extensive testing and software validation.

That's all from my side.

No more posts please:) over this
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
These were the 3 axis of motion for the LCA..say that na, instead of just saying 2-axis and 3-axis delta..just because the LCA does'nt have elevators like the JF-17 or canards like the Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon does'nt mean that its any less maneuverable in pitch up motions. this is NOT a reason for any issue with the LCA.

if you're referring to pitch, yaw and roll, then elevons are a perfectly acceptable solution. look at the Mirage-2000 for confirmation. it has a fantastic roll-rate.

the difficulty with testing the FBW of the LCA is that its all digital in all axes, so opening the envelope is that much more difficult and requires extensive testing and software validation.

That's all from my side.

No more posts please:) over this
You didnt read my post number 237. Did you ?

LCA is not a Fully FBW as claimed. It still uses hydraulics and not a full electrical FBW. Only the pilot link between the control surfaces and flight stick is FBW rest is Hydraulicaly controlled (control surfaces are not electrically controlled).

Go to page 11 on the 2004 ADA report (also in Aero-India report) it will mention the Hydraulic pump used ! Meaning that there is a central power unit (big bulky hydraulic centrifugal pump) somewhere in the fuselage of the LCA, to generate and distribute constant pressure to the actuators, the FBW is only controlling the valve positions not generating the pressure, hence maintenance will be required on control surfaces and none from the pilot flight control stick pump to the main pump but inside the fuselage (landing gears) and wings/rudder which are more troublesome then flight control stick.

In a fully mechanical controlled aircraft, there are 2 main control elements : motion levers and central hydraulic pump. In a FBW system, only the former is absent and not the latter. Even the actuators of LCA are hydraulically powered.

LCA' flight control surfaces are hydro-mechanically powered !!

The FBW does not make the aircraft more manoeuvrable, unless the aircraft has negative stability in more then one axis, the FBW can relax this negative stability given the pilot less work at the flight stick. FBW is an old technology something like more then 30 years old, even with the FBW, the LCA has not exceeded AOA of more then 20 and is now doing even worst at 17 degrees !!

In order to reach envisioned 26 degree it would have to aim for 30 realistically. Even with those degrees, the LCA falls short in comparison to the F-16 and Gripen/rafale.

I dont understand, How are you basing the capability of the LCA to those western aircraft's flight control surfaces ? :confused:

For exampe :

The JF-17 primary flight control surfaces…

1) Inbound flaperons (flaps + aerilones) and outboard railing edge is fixed + leading edge flaps (like F-16s)

2) Anhedral Horizontal tail ( elevators…F-16 again)

3) Rudder (vertical fin stabiliser)

Yet the LCA has only two main axes of motion flaps/aerilones and rudder. They only have one extra FBW system on the rudder since the Flaps/aerilones are combined to perform some of the horizontal tail duties. The Rudder is for directional stability and will not constitute significant AoAs compared to JF-17 horizontal tail, the outboard aerilones have a increased roll rate but there is no strategic significance for an aircraft performing rolls on its velocity vector, hence the F-16 do not have outboard separate aerilones.

Delta planes have lower wing loading. They perform well at higher altitudes because they have to have high thrust engine. Since you used Mirage 2000 as an example, Let us use some data of other comparable planes : Mirage 2000 against F16. In dogfight the delta has to do everyting within the first and second turn, If not it is dead. So simple as that.

Air to Air

LCA due to thrust issues and so many other issues is unable to reach even the minimum of 21 degrees of AoA required by Indian Airforce. It hasnt even pulled more then 6 g. At present, it is not even close to get a US certificate for being worthy as even their bombers are more g capables.

Air to Ground

For bombing, One needs range and lots of ordnance. Not a single engined light fighter jet such as LCA. You can not turn a trainer into a heavy bomber.

I hope I explained better this time.

The LCA as of right now is no better then a trainer and in the league of Mushak and K8. There is a reason why the first 40 LCAs are declared incapable of combat !! :)
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
These were the 3 axis of motion for the LCA..say that na, instead of just saying 2-axis and 3-axis delta..just because the LCA does'nt have elevators like the JF-17 or canards like the Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon does'nt mean that its any less maneuverable in pitch up motions. this is NOT a reason for any issue with the LCA.

if you're referring to pitch, yaw and roll, then elevons are a perfectly acceptable solution. look at the Mirage-2000 for confirmation. it has a fantastic roll-rate.
I couldnt help but add more

Can you explain how the delta wing with only one surface for 2 motions can perform a FULL pitch up and FULL roll at the same time without one wing having the two separate elevon segments opposing each other on the same wing ??

If they oppose then they would create equal lift and drags on the same wing on different sections chord wise LE to TE inboard and outboard !!

Not even the Mirage 2000 can performs such manoeuvres. And is only seen in conventional fighters such as F-16/JF-17 !!

The aileron can deflect only a smll amounts of degrees (under 5 degrees) to create a slight twist on the trailing edge of the elevons (not the trailing edge of the wing!) this is known as “wing morphing” or “twist” in order to perform a roll and pitch up, however, the 2 segments ALWAYS move in-conjunction with each other and simultaneously and never oppose each other on the same wing hence the name “elevon” and not separate elevator and aileron, the engineers are not stupid to give two separate parts a single name if they were not performing as a single surface! You could have 3 or 4 segments on a single, but the job of all segments is just to perform as one. Hence the surface is called a single surface on a single axis since the left wing cannot perform without the right.

The variation of a few degrees is to compensate for side slip with the help of the Rudder which occurs during rolls, and is generally known as trimming. Having two segments is a normal process in every delta wing from the early days, which showed in the wind tunnels tests that dynamic pressure distributions is greatly enhanced.

The crank on the delta wing is a leading edge shape of the wing that creates vortices to re-energise the boundary layer and increase main wing stall angles, and has no significance in the wing structure strengthening it has no special spars/ribs to further enhance the structural integrity of the wing

Niteshkjain, Where are you getting your info from ? :confused:

Here is a link for you since you used Mirae 2000 as an example :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1172833&size=L&width=1200&height=812&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Qnffnhyg%20Zventr%202000%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=43

Can you tell me what do you see ?

Let me tell you :

Mirage 2000 is doing a roll. It is not using outboard aileron for roll but the LE flaps for augmentations and stability and 2 segments simultaneously at a very small angle deflection !!

and No. LCA can not do this !!

Furthermore, The picture of the Mirage 2000 does not show if it is doing a full roll or not pitching, it is performing a half roll manoeuvre possibly to dive down by pulling the flight stick fully aft, you need elevators for that. It has to do the two manoeuvres separately in a delta wing !!!

So your explanation is flawed that for pitch, yaw and roll, elevons are a perfectly acceptable solution!!

I really hope you get the point !!

LCA is in the league of basic trainer Mushak and Medium trainer K8 !! It is obsolete and needs major and I mean really major redesigning all over from the engine to the aerodynamics !!
 
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Thery

New Member
I couldnt help but add more

Can you explain how the delta wing with only one surface for 2 motions can perform a FULL pitch up and FULL roll at the same time without one wing having the two separate elevon segments opposing each other on the same wing ??

If they oppose then they would create equal lift and drags on the same wing on different sections chord wise LE to TE inboard and outboard !!

Not even the Mirage 2000 can performs such manoeuvres. And is only seen in conventional fighters such as F-16/JF-17 !!

The aileron can deflect only a smll amounts of degrees (under 5 degrees) to create a slight twist on the trailing edge of the elevons (not the trailing edge of the wing!) this is known as “wing morphing” or “twist” in order to perform a roll and pitch up, however, the 2 segments ALWAYS move in-conjunction with each other and simultaneously and never oppose each other on the same wing hence the name “elevon” and not separate elevator and aileron, the engineers are not stupid to give two separate parts a single name if they were not performing as a single surface! You could have 3 or 4 segments on a single, but the job of all segments is just to perform as one. Hence the surface is called a single surface on a single axis since the left wing cannot perform without the right.

The variation of a few degrees is to compensate for side slip with the help of the Rudder which occurs during rolls, and is generally known as trimming. Having two segments is a normal process in every delta wing from the early days, which showed in the wind tunnels tests that dynamic pressure distributions is greatly enhanced.

The crank on the delta wing is a leading edge shape of the wing that creates vortices to re-energise the boundary layer and increase main wing stall angles, and has no significance in the wing structure strengthening it has no special spars/ribs to further enhance the structural integrity of the wing

Niteshkjain, Where are you getting your info from ? :confused:

Here is a link for you since you used Mirae 2000 as an example :

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1172833&size=L&width=1200&height=812&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Qnffnhyg%20Zventr%202000%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=43

Can you tell me what do you see ?

Let me tell you :

Mirage 2000 is doing a roll. It is not using outboard aileron for roll but the LE flaps for augmentations and stability and 2 segments simultaneously at a very small angle deflection !!

and No. LCA can not do this !!

Furthermore, The picture of the Mirage 2000 does not show if it is doing a full roll or not pitching, it is performing a half roll manoeuvre possibly to dive down by pulling the flight stick fully aft, you need elevators for that. It has to do the two manoeuvres separately in a delta wing !!!

So your explanation is flawed that for pitch, yaw and roll, elevons are a perfectly acceptable solution!!

I really hope you get the point !!

LCA is in the league of basic trainer Mushak and Medium trainer K8 !! It is obsolete and needs major and I mean really major redesigning all over from the engine to the aerodynamics !!
If I remember correctly, original plan of LCA has "TVC".
With "TVC" it doesn't really need "elevators" to achieve better agility and/or bigger AoA angle. So engine still is the main problem LCA is facing, relatively everything else is just minor ones.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
If I remember correctly, original plan of LCA has "TVC".
With "TVC" it doesn't really need "elevators" to achieve better agility and/or bigger AoA angle. So engine still is the main problem LCA is facing, relatively everything else is just minor ones.
LCA was never ever originally planned to have TVC !! and now that it has turned out to be in the league of basic trainers. You can forget it ever materializing even if envisioned.

LCA's engine was always suppose to be Kaveri with F404 as the interim solution which mind you were never suppose to be more then 8 !!

Where do you get your info from ? I am really curious now !!
 

Thery

New Member
LCA was never ever originally planned to have TVC !! and now that it has turned out to be in the league of basic trainers. You can forget it ever materializing even if envisioned.

LCA's engine was always suppose to be Kaveri with F404 as the interim solution which mind you were never suppose to be more then 8 !!

Where do you get your info from ? I am really curious now !!
Okay, I maybe wrong about LCA originally planning for TVC. I just remember I read some news long time ago, which suggest GRTE is planning has TVC on Kaveri when LCA enter the full production. However, I could not found any official information regard this nor I could found the original news that I read. So if you like you could just ignore what I just said. BTW, there does have lots unofficial news suggests that LCA will includes TVC.

Yes LCA at its current form is not yet ready for combat and it has lots problems that need to be fixed, and there have lots negative comments flowing around. But IMHO we don’t need to trash whole design so fast just base on couple negative comments, especially when we lack detail information. Just as J-10 is once been trash talk by PLAAF, and now they love it very much, and lots other jets had been called “hangar queen” during their introducing phase, such as F-4C, F-15, B2, etc.

LCA, is not a bad design, if it could achieve what it projected, it will be a very good jet. However, the plan maybe too ambitious and the technology leap forward are too huge for DRDO, so it is normal for it facing lots problems and technical difficulty. As for JF-17, which you like to draw a comparison to, its design compare to LCA is relatively more conservative and realistic.

At the end I still believe that the main problem that LCA is facing is its engine. Lots problem will be solve if India able get a powerful engine for LCA, even better if the engine has TVC.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Yes LCA at its current form is not yet ready for combat and it has lots problems that need to be fixed, and there have lots negative comments flowing around. But IMHO we don’t need to trash whole design so fast just base on couple negative comments, especially when we lack detail information. Just as J-10 is once been trash talk by PLAAF, and now they love it very much, and lots other jets had been called “hangar queen” during their introducing phase, such as F-4C, F-15, B2, etc.

LCA, is not a bad design, if it could achieve what it projected, it will be a very good jet. However, the plan maybe too ambitious and the technology leap forward are too huge for DRDO, so it is normal for it facing lots problems and technical difficulty. As for JF-17, which you like to draw a comparison to, its design compare to LCA is relatively more conservative and realistic.

At the end I still believe that the main problem that LCA is facing is its engine. Lots problem will be solve if India able get a powerful engine for LCA, even better if the engine has TVC.
LCA was always a bad and a limited design !! It started off in 1983 and pretty much a failed copy of Mirage 2000. and mind you that comparing the LCA to the Mirage 2000 is like comparing a trout to an eagle in the sky !

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t20/Aliph_Ahmed/lca20m2k.jpg

DRDO messed up in every field when it comes to LCA :

LCA has design problems which will be fixed.
LCA has Radar problems which will be fixed.
LCA has engine problems which will be fixed.
LCA has FBW problems which will be fixed.
25 years and the saga continues...:)

What LCA has turned out to be shouldnt be a surprise to anyone. I am amazed that DRDO didnt forsee all this coming !!

Oh well, as things stand now, first (40) forty LCAs will be incapable of doing combat and are in the league of basic trainer Mushak and Medium trainr K8.

and yes, it is a very serious aerodynamic issue and not only an engine issue as you like to belive :

I'll give you a better idea. Pluck the figures in for LCA and you will get a very good idea where LCA stands :

A jet aircrafts' characteristics

wing span = 21.5 m
wing area = 43.7 m^2
fuel mass = 3,617 Kg
total mass = 13,777 Kg
engine tsfc = 0.45 NN/hr
zero-L/D coefficient = 0.016
Oswald efficiency factor = 0.834

Calculate: (at SEA level)

1, max L/D ratio.
2, L/D at max speed.
3, max range/endurance.
4, max speeds.

If you cant then just say so. I will stop further commenting on your posts.

If you can then I will take this debate much further. :D
 
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