Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

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Next_Generation

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Umm, forgive me if I am missing something and I am intrigued (despite the urge to say out of this.) Can expand on the "English pilot school" comment. Namely what 'school' and in what context?
hehe sorry for my bad choice of termonogly here.

i was refering to UK´s Empire Test Pilots´ School, i cant find the link, but im still looking. anyway the statement come from them.
only reason i brought it up, was because you can see them as an independent source, if it were the swedes who said it, i wouldnt have taken it to serious.

im not an expert here. but i think in here i can learn something.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Verified Defense Pro
1. Norway doesnt have, hostal neighbours, and Russia, will not be an instantly threat, second, you can say what you want about russian military avaition, but technology speaking. they are inferior.
the nature of conflict in the last 30 years is that it's rapid and relatively unpredictable. To make a claim that you don't have any enemies now so can judge how to respond to a threat based on a current benign neighbourhood is flawed and wishful thinking

2, Norway, like it or not, has a very limited military budget as it is, and gripen is proven low LCC, easy to maintain, and high MTBF, not to talk about the reliability.
look at the MTBF for F-22, and it scares me to death, because of the VLO platform, its a big chance, F-35 will meet the same fate.
Proven at what? where and when? by who (not SAAB marketing)

what are the MTBF for the F-22? where is it, what were the breakdowns? where is the comparative data?

what scares you to death when nothing is available in the PD?

If VLO is a big risk why is it that every modern military and aviation entity is developing VLO solutions.



3, 95 per cent of the norwegian airforce assignments is to intercept and play with russians migs in the north. Gripen like many of you guys want to call it is a "toy" and with toys, you play!
The role of the RNAF Is more than air intercepts, thats absolutely a ridiculous simplistic compression of the tasking.

4.
nato assignments. If norway will operate in hostal areas vs, other than 3rd world countries that doesnt even have an airforce, they will do so, after F-22 have cleaned the house sort of speak. so norway will never really have use for the stealh capabilities. because they will never engage, 4+ generation air supiority A/C. and not without support from US/UK, ok you never really know. but on the other hand. Gripen passed the requirements sat by norwegian government for their future aircraft fleet. and that is proof enough for me.
its a nonsense statement. you fail to understand that VLO benefit is exactly that - primary stages of war - the breaching tool for other less protected systems to follow through. Thats been the cogent lesson of 1999 and which triggered the rush by all major military powers to fast track systems development in VLO/LO/Ewarfare solutions. As a breaching tool the JSF can go dirty once the work is done. It's a concept that most fanclubbers fail to understand. In fact the example of this at a doctrine level was demonstrated using the radar matted firebees in Vietnam

5.
the fact remains, F-35 was build upon US doctotrin in other words "offensiv warfare" Gripen was build after the Swedish doctotrin. with defence in mind.
So 7+2 countries all subscribe to offensive warfare? good grief. stop dumbing down the debate to fit your prejudices.

you guys might laugh at me. its ok. im not an expert. but to say Norway shall purchase F-35, because its the best A/C on paper. is for me. unbeliievable.
there is nothing wrong with not being an expert, but to make claims which demonstrate bias rather than logic becomes irritating

i´m very interested to hear, what you guys think?
less emotion and more considered debate would be of benefit to you.

understand basic concepts before making sweeping statements.
 

Next_Generation

New Member
Is this confirmed ? do you have a link to this ? (skip http, i saw you cant post links yet)
This is a really subjective matter, first off, we dont know the MTBF of the F-35, so we dont know how many aircraft will be avaliable at any given time. This is crucial to a small airforce like Norways.
Secondly, better at what mission ? in terms of entering Russian AD with 2 bombs and 2 AMRAAMs, -yes, definitely, Gripen would have to use more expensive standoff missiles to do these missions. As for CAP, i dont think so, 2 bombs and 2 AMRAAMs is not a suitable load for that mission, and add missiles on pylons will transform VLO to low RCS, and the vast speed difference tilt the scale IMV.
it was stated from volvo euro, and i think you can find it on their webpage, anyway i read it in another swedish paper, a couple of months back.

of course we dont know the MTBF yet, but if you look at the history of american yets, you really cant compare it with the swedish ones. 4.7 is the best if im not mistaken.
second, if you look at F-22s MTBF and the fact the platform still has to mature. its hard to believe it will be as good as gripens.

but like everything els about F-35 you really cant be to sure about anything. is not operatenal yet. so you need to see at the previous platforms and the smiularities to F-22.

but this is just my thoughts. and i hope im wrong..
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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of course we dont know the MTBF yet, but if you look at the history of american yets, you really cant compare it with the swedish ones. 4.7 is the best if im not mistaken.
again - what is the data breakdown? against what criteria? where is it?

second, if you look at F-22s MTBF and the fact the platform still has to mature. its hard to believe it will be as good as gripens.
oh come on! where is the F-22 MTBF? WTF has it got to do with the JSF? It's a far more mature platform - it's operational in larger numbers than Gripen - what is the comparative matrix here? answer = NONE

but like everything els about F-35 you really cant be to sure about anything. is not operatenal yet. so you need to see at the previous platforms and the smiularities to F-22.
what similarities do the JSF have with the F-22? They're designed for different roles in the USAF. The JSF in other airforces will fulfill a universal role. It's a basic doctrine issue for USAF. trying to extrapolate that to RNAF is ridiculous
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Ehm they operates gripen, so they if anyone should know what the A/C is capable of. don´t you think??
The only comparative data that they have is with Hawks and Typhoons. Don't pollute threads with bogus science.

You are becoming irritating because your bias trades on pseudo stats and logic.

If you like the Gripen then fine, but stop making BS statements in here just to promote your own bias.

When you persistently fail to understand basic concepts then you will of course be expected to provide rigorous defence of your claims. To date you have failed to do either.
 

Next_Generation

New Member
gf0012-aust
oh sorry if im not an expert here. like you..


ok i might be wrong. is just my opnion of the situation..

i just cant see that norway have any need for F-35 i think they will manage more than ok with Gripen NG

you obviously think otherwise.
and thank you for given me another perspective. but please everyone dont have as great knowledge as you.
and if the gripen platform was so bad, why is it even in the competetion?

im new here. and try to learn. not to say whats right or wrong.

but yes i can leave if you think i destroy the debate..
 

Next_Generation

New Member
f0012-aust

and btw, im not a bigger fan of gripen than of F-35

i just dont think F-35 is suited better for Norway thats all.

and yes talking about MTBF for the F-22 regarding to their stealth. it is some simularities to F-35 and im very well aware that they are developed for entirely different purposes.


but why dont you educate instead of being rude??

you dont need to be rude because you know more ?

i never said i was right i just wrote down my thoughts and asked you guys about them.. and why?? yes to learn.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012-aust
oh sorry if im not an expert here. like you..
I don't claim to be an expert.

ok i might be wrong. is just my opnion of the situation..
which is why caution needs to be entertained when making sweeping statements

i just cant see that norway have any need for F-35 i think they will manage more than ok with Gripen NG
The RNAF assessment team obviously thinks differently.

you obviously think otherwise.
and thank you for given me another perspective. but please everyone dont have as great knowledge as you.
knowledge is relative. it's the logic thats important when facts are absent.

and if the gripen platform was so bad, why is it even in the competetion?
RFT (assessments) are performed against platforms meeting an overall requirement. it DOES NOT mean that they are all competitive. I've been involved in procurement programs, and I can assure you that just because a platform is in the first cut does not mean that it's in the hunt long term. Selection is based on a matrix that covers a number of criteria. It's only once the entire matrix is assessed by the selection and capability team that platforms start to get cut out.



im new here. and try to learn. not to say whats right or wrong.

but yes i can leave if you think i destroy the debate..[/quote]
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
f0012-aust

and btw, im not a bigger fan of gripen than of F-35

i just dont think F-35 is suited better for Norway thats all.

and yes talking about MTBF for the F-22 regarding to their stealth. it is some simularities to F-35 and im very well aware that they are developed for entirely different purposes.


but why dont you educate instead of being rude??

you dont need to be rude because you know more ?

i never said i was right i just wrote down my thoughts and asked you guys about them.. and why?? yes to learn.
The reason for my clear frustration is that you are making sweeping statements and presenting them as a vehicle of fact.

Before posting anymore items perhaps you need to read a few more posts and see what is expected.

I have no problem with anyone who has an opinion, but presenting bias and distorting assumptions to support your own prejudices is not a useful tactic and will not garner friends in here.
 

energo

Member
The only comparative data that they have is with Hawks and Typhoons. Don't pollute threads with bogus science.

You are becoming irritating because your bias trades on pseudo stats and logic.

If you like the Gripen then fine, but stop making BS statements in here just to promote your own bias.

When you persistently fail to understand basic concepts then you will of course be expected to provide rigorous defence of your claims. To date you have failed to do either.
I fail to see anything wrong with joining a forum to boraden ones insight, in particular when doing so in a friendly and curious manner.


Regards,
Bjørnar
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I fail to see anything wrong with joining a forum to boraden ones insight, in particular when doing so in a friendly and curious manner.


Regards,
Bjørnar
Happy to discuss this offline. I've expressed myself clearly already in here and don't intend to pollute the thread with OT debate.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I presume he means the Empire Test Pilots School. It's used Gripen for a few years.

http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2006/060313_ETPS.htm
Interestingly enough, the official site for EPTS doesn't list Gripen in its suite of test and training aircraft......

http://www.qinetiq.com/ix_etps/school/aircraft.html

However, in http://www.qinetiq.com/ix_etps/school/preview_aircraft.html

Preview and Visiting Aircraft

Saab GripenFlying with Gripen
Since 1999, ETPS has included Gripen in its test pilot training courses, working in conjunction with Saab. Select groups of trainees and their IPs have gone to Sweden to experience Gripen's advanced cockpit technology and flight characteristics. This year, the Gripen aircraft is being fully integrated into the school's training syllabus. For the first time, Gripen is being flown exclusively by ETPS personnel - with two-seat aircraft occupied by an ETPS IP and student on every flight. Until now, a Saab test pilot has always been on board but, during 2005, Gripen is being released entirely to the ETPS.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The problem is that many nations will have construction agreements to build sections of the aircraft. While these nations may buy only 100 or so aircraft, they will build sections for several hundred aircraft, supporting their own industries with the F-35s. The F-35 program has a lot of off sets. Unfortunately, most if not all of the Gripen's production is Sweden. Keeping as much of your investment in your own country is a very wise economic policy, and doing so usually trumps buying another aircraft.

In other words, it maybe cheaper to buy Audis instead of Volkswagens if your country partakes in constructing parts or sections of the Audis. Why support 50,000 Swedish jobs, when you can support 10,000 Norwegian jobs?
 

SlyDog

New Member
Next_Generation: My impression are that lesson are learned from F-117 and F-22 when it comes to "stealth and maintains". So F-35 should be better in the aspect of maintain cost. But its is possible that it still bring up the maintain cost compared to "4+gen aircraft".
 
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