Information on the Soviet Navy of the late 40's and 50's

[Andi3579]

I am very interested in information on the Red Fleet of the 40's till the 50's. Especially I am looking for unrealised project like the Sovietsky Soyuz class battleship or the planned Aircraft Carriers. Would be very glad, if somebody could give me some hints, where I can find some more. Already tried it by google, where I honestly found this page and at local libraries, but the result was frustrating.

Thanks for helping.

 

[Sea Toby]

Have you read Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1947-1982 Part II, Warsaw Pact, at a good library? Under Stalin the Soviets concentrated on coastal warships, not large capital ships. The shipyards were damaged from the war, and outside of receiving some Italian ships as war prizes, along with the British Royal Sovereign, nothing large was built. This book doesn't include the ones you mentioned either.

If you google this, some old copies remain for sale. Its an expensive book, and its wise to buy both Part I and Part II, Part I being Western nations, Part II being Warsaw Pact and non alligned nations.

 

[Andi3579]

Unfortuneatly I dont have good libraries near my hometown. I`ve visited 3 university librariers, but there weren`t any books about fighting ships.

Wikipedia is a pretty good source for an uninformed newbie like I am. Also I dont not have the sum to buy me one of the World`s fighting ships.

The background why I need this is, that I am involved in a role play, where I am playing Stalin. I know very weird And I want to create a soviet navy which is able to cope with the RN and the USN.

Maybe you can help me designing some new ships

 

[Andi3579]

I also would be very glad, if you could give me some hints were I can find the costs of constructing a battleship or a destroyer.

 

[Sea Toby]

While I can find prices for today's warships, its difficult to find prices for warships fifty years ago. I would suggest surfing the web of some newspapers and read their archives, if any are available. Its easy to find lists of warships, what their weapons were, their size, etc., but its difficult to find their price unless you search the archives at their launchings and commissionings dates, and news clips of those days or the next days newpaper clippings. Usually a newspaper prints their price. This is a lot of research, but its what the world wide web is all about.

Another route would be to read the Congressional Record for US ships prices the date of the defense appropriations bills or the day after. Either fly to Washington, D.C. and search through the Library of Congress or drive to Bonham, Texas and search the fine collection of Sam Rayburn's Congressional Record.

The US Navy League's Seapower magazine mentions price of ships expecially in their May issue, try to find their archive on the web or if you must go to a library which may have an archive in a navy town such as San Diego or Norfolk.

 

[whisper21]

Dear Andi3579:- don't despair, they'll come through:-

Stalin was an absolute and total dictator, if any rumors reached the West, it was cause he willed it. And he allowed it to be believed that he wanted large, competitive ocean fleets, that's plural. World War Two ( the great Patriotic War) got in the way, broke his plans in half, you'll find gobs of stuff pre-1941 when he was trying to get super-duper battleships built in the good ole U.S.of A., and 17.7" guns manufactured in France. You are not going to be dissappointed, the people on this site know lots of stuff for you. Just be patient while they get the steam up...

 

[Salty Dog]

I am very interested in information on the Red Fleet of the 40's till the 50's. Especially I am looking for unrealised project like the Sovietsky Soyuz class battleship or the planned Aircraft Carriers. Would be very glad, if somebody could give me some hints, where I can find some more. Already tried it by google, where I honestly found this page and at local libraries, but the result was frustrating.

Thanks for helping.

Our collegue Gollevainen put together some nice information on Soviet carrier development. << click on the link.

 

[Sea Toby]

That's very good information I haven't read before. Conway's has good information on the ships the Soviets built, but not much on ships they didn't build. Again, as I noted before, most of this information don't mention costs. Thanks, Salty Dog.

 

[Andi3579]

It took a few minutes to read through, but it is infact a pretty good source on Soviet CV's. Thanks Salty Dog.

I guess the mean problem will be finding a library which has the Conway's. Unfortunatly travelling to the USA would cost a lot, because I life in Europe. Also I am not next to a harbour.

As it seems I`ve got to take example which are similar to US ships and take those costs as my costs.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[windscorpion]

I have access to the Times online archive, a quickie search tells me that the Royal Oak (the battleship sunk in 1939 at Scapa Flow) cost £2,500,000 to build. Later on when i have time i'll do a bit more in depth searching and see what else i can turn up.

 

[Salty Dog]

Russian and Soviet Dreadnoughts

Some nice information on Russian and Soviet Dreadnoughts at the Hazegray.org website.

Interesting factoid that the USSR had the ex-HMS Royal Sovereign from May 1944 to Feb 1949.

 

[Sea Toby]

They also received as a war prize the Italian battleship Cavour class Giudio Cesare which sunk during 1955 named in Soviet service Novorossiysk.

Two Gangus class WWI battleships Oktyabraskaya Revolutsiya and Sevastopol were broken up during 1956-57.

The ex-British Royal Sovereign was named the Arkhangelsk in Soviet Service. Returned to RN during 1949.

That's all of the battleships in the Soviet navy post war 1947.

Two Stalingrad battle cruisers were laid down in 1951-52, Moskva and Stalingrad. They were broken up later but would have had six 12 inch guns, 3 twin turrets. Many refer to a ten year building program begun in 1950 which would have included 4 battle cruisers, 40 cruisers total, 24 Sverdlovs , 16 heavy cruisers, plus the 4 battle cruisers. The Sverdlovs had four twin turrets of 6 inch guns. The heavy cruisers would have had either four twin turrets of 7.1 inch or 8 inch guns. Estimates are based on a pre-war designs gain credence in view of the fact that both the Sverdlovs and Skorys were direct modifications of prewar types.

That's all for the battle cruisers and cruisers. You might want to find Conway's book for 1916-`947 too, its in one volume. And its just as expensive. It should show some of the designs prewar.

The Conway books were published by the USNI, US Naval Institute Press.

 

[kato]

Cruisers:
6 Kirov (1939-1944) (active till 60s) (pre-war design)
5 Chapayev (1949-1950) (pre-war design)
14 Sverdlov (1952-1955) (modified Chapayev design; 14 out of 24 completed)
Destroyers:
69 Skoryy (1949-1953) (pre-war design)
1 Neustrashimy (1955) (first post-war design, too big/expensive)
27 Kotlin (1955-1958) (serial 50s DD unitr, smaller Neustrashimy)
Frigates:
8 Kola (1951-1953) (first post-war design, too expensive)
50+ ?? Riga (-1956) (serial 50s DE unit, smaller Kola)

I find the development with the DDs and DEs interesting - the initial concept in each was considered too big and too expensive (by Stalin), and hence a cheap smaller replacement was designed for serial production.

 

[windscorpion]

Some more costs.

An RN destroyer cost £450,000 in 1940 (didn't say which type sorry)
A 5000ton Dido class cruiser cost £2 million in 1937

The US battleship Iowa cost £21 million, or $85 million though the article thinks final costs would be $100 million, but the US did get their money's worth out of it!

 

[Sea Toby]

Many libraries share their books with others, so I would check out your local library. I have done so in the past, back during the days of micro-film. I suppose they keep those records now on a computer with a data list. Ask your librarian. You might find some old Janes books.

 

[windscorpion]

Check out Ebay for second hand and older books sometimes you can get real bargains, i bought Jane's Underwater Warfare Systems 1990-91 for a few quid a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Jon K]

Many libraries share their books with others, so I would check out your local library. I have done so in the past, back during the days of micro-film. I suppose they keep those records now on a computer with a data list. Ask your librarian. You might find some old Janes books.

I would not recommend vintage Jane's as a source, as in examples of Cold War Jane's I've seen Soviet ship specs are largely based on guesswork. This is especially so in 1950's editions when even number of ships are estimated. I think RN and USN deliberately inflated the Soviet sub threat, for example.