Greek FREMM

[youpii]

Isn't that odd that the Mica VL are only on one side?

 

[tatra]

Isn't that odd that the Mica VL are only on one side?

No. There are other ships with a similar arrangement e.g. Dutch built M-frigates (Karel Doorman class) has 16 VL Sea Sparrow along one side of the helicopter hangar

 

[sierrahotel]

Does anyone know the Tactical system/Data Links package of the FREMM?

 

[youpii]

In the mini Kirov style, they might as well fill the empty area behind the Sylver with another row of launchers for 16xAster-15 and use the hangar roof for a Tetral Mistral launcher

 

[dk706]

Sierra hotel the Combat system used for the Fremm is the SAAM-ESD
SAAM -> Surface-to-air anti-missile (extended self defense version) it is very similar to the PAAMS used in the Type 45 destroyers and it is categorized by the greek navy as State of the Art.

 

[dk706]

As for the data links communication package although there is no official info on the topic the only sure thing is that it will have link11/16 and satellite telecommunications package operation in the Ku band complete with multiple Kriptomechanisms.

 

[dk706]

Good news today for the Greek Navy the option for an exta 2 vosper Super Vita fast attack missile boats was activated.

 

[sierrahotel]

It would be very interesting to see an integraded Link-16 air defence enviroment with Erieye AEW,F-16B52+ and probably Eurofighters , plus FREMMs and Patriot PAC III SAMs in the Aegean territory.

 

[dk706]

An integrated air defense takes much more than link 16... link 16 is primarily a line of site voice and data communication protocol an integrated defense takes at least C3 capability with fiber optic connections and real time targeting data from multiple sensors like the Ground based radars AWACS and air defense systems like Patriot Hawk and S-300. This has happened actually to a certain degree with the integrated Air defense center in Larissa....

 

[sierrahotel]

At the moment the air defence enviroment in Greece is based in aged Data Links(Link-1,Link-11/11B) with medium capabilities and many drawbacks.Upgrading this network into L-16 is essential if you want to take full advantage of the new assets.I could explain how exactly but it will be off topic.All advanced NATO powers consider the use of L-16 more than necessary in their operations(Air-Sea-Land).
The integrated Air defense center in Larissa will be operational after 2010-12.

 

[dk706]

I will have to repeat this one more time link 16 uses UHF for the transmission of its data that by definition limits its to the line of site use and in only some cases if UHF satcom is integrated long range telecommunications. Link 16 would be one of the components in an integrated air defence environment especially since it would be used by the smaller platforms of the network like individual aircraft and missile batteries. BUT to fully integrate such a network you will need a full long range wireless network essentially link 22 when it becomes available or alternatively a dedicated fiber optic network between command centers.

Just to avoid any confusion link 16 will be a component of what you are talking but link 22 is the one that makes it work

 

[sierrahotel]

I don't want to get off-topic explaing how things will work with the implementation of L-16.If you wish we can start a new thread and discuss the evolution of Hellenic Air defence with the new weapon systems (FREDA,New fighter e.t.c).

As for the ship I've read that HN is oriented into ASW and AAW role while the strategic attack issue (SCALP Naval) is still off the specifications.

 

[AegisFC]

Just to avoid any confusion link 16 will be a component of what you are talking but link 22 is the one that makes it work

Link-22 has been defunded. Link 16 is line of sight limited but using aircraft as a relay is a simple and fairly cheap (the AEW aircraft is going to be up their anyways) way of extending the network.

 

[kato]

Link 16 is line of sight limited but using aircraft as a relay is a simple and fairly cheap (the AEW aircraft is going to be up their anyways) way of extending the network.

and, for ops without AEW, about any other relay stations with SATCOM...

(Germany is looking into such Reach Back capability as part of the "Basis See" naval concept)

 

[beleg]

As for the ship I've read that HN is oriented into ASW and AAW role while the strategic attack issue (SCALP Naval) is still off the specifications.

HN needs increased ASW capabilities more than AAW imo. Especially with the delay of U214s & the aging of the surface platforms ASW is a more important challenge in the face of HN.

 

[eliaslar]

@beleg
i think the HN needs extensive AAW capabilities. As for ASW the HN already has vessels with extensive ASW capabilities, i mean the MEKO 200HN and the Standard Class ships, which obviously can be easily upgraded to expand their ASW capabilities.

 

[sierrahotel]

After the retirement of the 4 CF Adams destroyers (with SM-1 missiles)the HN has no ship with area defence capabilities.All MEKO and S class frigates are designed for ASW and ASUW roles.So it is critical for the new ship to have extended AAW capabilities for fleet protection.

 

[Sea Toby]

Upgrading to ESSMs, evolved sea sparrow missiles, will provide a similar range to SM-1s. While they won't have the range of SM-2s, and possibly not be able to aim as many missiles, there is a reason why the US Navy chose not to upgrade the SM-1s, and behead their Mk 13 missile launchers on the FFG-7 class frigates. You can also quad pack the ESSMs, providing say 32 missiles with an 8 cell Mk41 VLS, not quite as many as the 40 missiles of a Mk 13 launcher. Some ships had room and space saved for another 8 cell Mk41 launcher, which could provide 64 missiles.

I believe the Australians found this too heavy for their Anzacs, I would expect the same with other Meko 200s. However, I do not think there is so much a weight problem if the Mk41 cells are on the main deck, lower than the upper deck of a Meko 200. Such as the Dutch, German, and Spanish newer AAW destroyers and frigates with the missile cells on the main deck.

During the 1980s and 1990s, many missile systems were located higher up. It seems the new ships of the 2000s have their missile systems lower on the main deck, for example FREMMs and FREDAs, and Sigmas and F2000s.

I believe the Aster 30s will provide area defense capability too.

 

[contedicavour]

This Greek FFG programme has been around for a while... and its specifications are still not 100% clear. DCN is trying to push through all it has, from Scalp to Aster to Mica. Such as ship with full load of Scalp and Aster would cost around 800 million euro, not far less than a Horizon...

Taking into consideration that the French FREMM in the FREDA AAW version already has trouble fitting in 48 VLS and sufficient radar systems without compromising its ASW requirements (including helicopter), thinking of adding in SCALP and MICA seems to me totally unrealistic. Using some of the 48 VLS for SCALP wouldn't make sense as AAW is the key need. Using dedicated VLS for Aster 15 only (the A43 Sylver) would be a bad idea as the cost is very close to A50 for both Aster 15&30.

One last thing, I'm still wondering what radar systems the French will come up with. In Italy all the FREMMs will be AAW with active phased array radar (new version of EMPAR) making up for some of the problems due to the lack of a long range 3D air search radar.

Both the Spanish F100 (if the US is willing to supply SM2) and the Italian version of FREMM AAW (building as we speak) are still very much in the race...

cheers

 

[beleg]

The US might release AEGIS&SM2 for Greece & Turkey as Turkey is also going to start a similar program for an AAW frigate to be jointly developed and produced very soon. Italians are promoting their Aster15/30 combo with EMPAR here too. Why deny and loose the tender to Europeans But i believe Turkish Navy has been waiting so long to get a ship with SM2. So I believe it might be Spaniards this time