Greek FREMM

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Spacearrow99

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The Greek FREMM doesn't need to fitted with a close in weapons system. Each FREMM is equipped with the Thales Artemis Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system. VL MICA can use active radar or infrared seekers.
 
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beleg

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Are all 6 ships offered to Greece of same class? The current budget for 6 ships would certainly not be enough for ships of this class even if you exclude the missiles..
 
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Spacearrow99

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beleg said:
Are all 6 ships offered to Greece of same class? The current budget for 6 ships would certainly not be enough for ships of this class even if you exclude the missiles..
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Yes, all 6 ships would be of the same class.

It looks like more 16vls could be space on the foredeck of the FREMM. I have heard reports that French AAW FREMM would have alleast 48 vls.
 
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beleg

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Interesting , lets see how the developments fold in near future. I think the current amount of missiles are adequate for such a ship. You are not escorting carrier task force , the ship is a frigate not a destroyer so its kind of pointless to load much more missiles in it.
 
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dk706

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The current allocated budget for the 6 AAW frigates is 2.4 billion I would say that that is enough for 4 Freda probably another two as an option with an additional budget. Does anyone know whether the A-50 and A-70 VLS are interchangeable, I know that the A-70 is the newer one and the once supposed to accept the Scalp naval missiles but is it bigger than the A-50 and can it accept Aster 30 and 15 missiles??

Why mica VLS and not aster 15? I would think that the combination of Aster 30 Aster 15 and a Close in system like the RAM would be the best choice especially in a very congested environment like the Aegean.

Finally the role of this frigates is supposed to be AAW but they seem to be both AAW and ground attack with the 5-inch gun and the Scalp..... Not that I dont like the ground attack capabilities but is there any chance that they are trying to put a lot of apples in the same basket and they will fail miserably like with the Greek corvette program????
 
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Spacearrow99

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beleg said:
Interesting , lets see how the developments fold in near future. I think the current amount of missiles are adequate for such a ship. You are not escorting carrier task force , the ship is a frigate not a destroyer so its kind of pointless to load much more missiles in it.
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The Greek FREEM proposal is a very good ideal for the Hellenic Navy . The French AAW FREMM will be escorting carrier and ampibious task forces, so it probably needs more Aster 30 capable launchers.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
dk706 said:
... Does anyone know whether the A-50 and A-70 VLS are interchangeable, I know that the A-70 is the newer one and the once supposed to accept the Scalp naval missiles but is it bigger than the A-50 and can it accept Aster 30 and 15 missiles??

Why mica VLS and not aster 15? I would think that the combination of Aster 30 Aster 15 and a Close in system like the RAM would be the best choice especially in a very congested environment like the Aegean.

Finally the role of this frigates is supposed to be AAW but they seem to be both AAW and ground attack with the 5-inch gun and the Scalp..... Not that I dont like the ground attack capabilities but is there any chance that they are trying to put a lot of apples in the same basket and they will fail miserably like with the Greek corvette program????
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A70 is longer than A50. Yes, it can accept Aster 15 & 30.

A35 & Mica is much smaller & lighter than A43 & Aster 15, & weight (especially topweight) & space matter.

I think you're on to something: too many apples indeed! Trying to fit out a 6000 tone ship like a mini-Kirov. Perhaps better to have more AAW & drop the Scalp N. I think that submarines might be better platforms for the Scalp N, & in any case, what targets do they have for it that their air-launched Scalps can't hit? Should fit A50 VLS in place of the A70 (save weight & space) & carry more Aster 30. If they want to do coastal bombardment, get ER ammo for the gun, & MM.40 Block 3 on the Exocet launchers would give them a land attack capability, though much shorter range than the Scalp.
 
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CarrierRider

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I fear the Greeks are going down the same path they went down before with the Type 214 Sub.

Why would they pick another paper design? The French have not built any of their AAW variants of the Fremm yet.

I did notice that the Spanish F-104 was in Piraeus today. Perhaps they might be better suited with a mature ship and a proven Radar/CMS system.
 
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dk706

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Swerve i totally agree with your thinking.... Assuming that the air force will update the remaining mirage 2000 to the 5mk2 standard in the near future Greece will have 50 platforms able to launch scalp and Greece does not need the power projection capabilities of a long range ship launched cruise missile since it has numerous airfields in the Aegean that act as forward operation bases.

I wouldn't say that the Freda is as much of an operational choice as it is a cost dictated choice since it is the cheapest to buy and to maintain of the other ships.
What i like the least on the ship is its radar. The Hercules is a multifunction radar and it is not specialized in the AAW role moreover it is a phased array radar that has an inherent disadvantage in coastal areas due to its signal processing in clustered environments. Lets forget that any radar that is used on those ships should be able to pick up threats that poop up behind landmasses and to distinguish small fast attack missile boats that are very close to the coastline....
 
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CarrierRider

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DK....It sounds like you just described the Aegis and SPY F(V) or D(V). The US Navy has invested millions in creating a more littoral capable system. The (V) can work through clutter much better than a X band radar, and with the ducting that is prevalent in the Aegan, the S-band is more effective.

As for price, with the US dollar relatively weak, I think a US solution may be the cheapest. If I recall after the aborted Greek Corvette program in 2003, the prices of all the bids were released in the Press and the US was on the lower end.
 
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dk706

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No mate I just described the disadvantages of all phased array radars compared to AESA radars... I wasn't comparing the Hercules with the Spy-1 but with the APAR or the Sampson that have almost instantaneous (millisecond) scanning rates, a very low probability of intercept, multiple agile beams that are the best bet against a highly congested environment like the Aegean.
 
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tatra

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Verified Defense Pro
swerve said:
A70 is longer than A50. Yes, it can accept Aster 15 & 30.

A35 & Mica is much smaller & lighter than A43 & Aster 15, & weight (especially topweight) & space matter.

I think you're on to something: too many apples indeed! Trying to fit out a 6000 tone ship like a mini-Kirov. Perhaps better to have more AAW & drop the Scalp N. I think that submarines might be better platforms for the Scalp N, & in any case, what targets do they have for it that their air-launched Scalps can't hit? Should fit A50 VLS in place of the A70 (save weight & space) & carry more Aster 30. If they want to do coastal bombardment, get ER ammo for the gun, & MM.40 Block 3 on the Exocet launchers would give them a land attack capability, though much shorter range than the Scalp.
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Just because it has 16 A70 to accommodate Scalp doesn't mean these are always present. Just means a maximum of 16 of these can be carried. There is no reason though why A70 should be used solely for Scalp. It could also be loaded with Aster 30. So, Greeks can mix and match, according to the scenario they are facing.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
dk706 said:
No mate I just described the disadvantages of all phased array radars compared to AESA radars... I wasn't comparing the Hercules with the Spy-1 but with the APAR or the Sampson that have almost instantaneous (millisecond) scanning rates, a very low probability of intercept, multiple agile beams that are the best bet against a highly congested environment like the Aegean.
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Yes. Given the availability of the APAR/SMART-L combination, I've always been puzzled by the Spanish & Norwegian choice of SPY-1. De Zeven Provincien seems to work well, & the Japanese are sufficiently impressed by APAR that they've bought the technology for the FCS-3 radar fitted to Hyuuga.
 
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dk706

New Member
Yes indeed swerve the AESA's seem the way to go into the future and have enormous margins for improvement. As you said it is strange that countries choose to fit their top of the line new ships with a technology that has almost reached its absolute potential and will not be able to further evolve in the near future.

Does anyone know how is Spy-3 comparable to Spy-1D in terms of size and weight?
 
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CarrierRider

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I agree AESA is the radar of the future, but its just not there yet. You end up using too much radar time to track targets, which then degrades your ability to continue your volume and horizon search. If you have anymore than 4-5 targets on one face of your AESA, you have pretty much eliminated any ability to search targets behind what you are currently tracking. One would think mission planners would know that; and set raids up to exploit it

Talking about weights...to get a AESA radar that is as capable as the currently fielded SPY-1D, you need to look at the DDG 1000. It has about the same power aperture as SPYD and its on a 14K tonne ship. And still needs S band for horizon and volume search.

Its like scotch....I'd rather have a nice smooth proven 18yr old single malt, rather than a new blended scotch...
 
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dk706

New Member
4-5 targets on one face of your AESA??? Did you just make that up mate? The APG-77 of the f-22 that has 1500 transmit\receive modules can track simultaneously more than 12 targets and continue its horizon search without any problem. One of the 4 faces of the APAR consists of 3424 transmit/receive modules. The APAR and Sampson can simultaneously track hundreds of targets and if you divide that between faces that does not give you less than 25 per face.... o ye and the tracking range for an P-3orion size target for the Sampson is 400km.... lets get serious...4-5 targets is a joke...

Moreover any radar with serious long range volume search uses the S-band...what is great about the spy-3 is that it can use both the X-band for pinpoint accuracy and targeting and the S-band for long range search and all in the same radar...

We are not talking about scotches here we are talking about technology.... and technology becomes old very fast. At the time it takes someone to integrate a new technology into a weapon system there is already another even more innovative ready to be used.

As they say a bought a new laptop with as year guaranty and it was old in 6 months....
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
CarrierRider said:
I agree AESA is the radar of the future, but its just not there yet. You end up using too much radar time to track targets, which then degrades your ability to continue your volume and horizon search. ......
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But these ships have APAR and SMART-L, or Sampson and S1850M.
 
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