Russian Navy Head Calls for 5-6 Aircraft Carriers

[Firehorse]

article

Here is the English translation of that article

In Severodvinsk will create a dock for the construction of aircraft carriers
In Severodvinsk will be constructed dry dock for the construction of aircraft carriers, reported Regnum c reference to the statement of the chief engineer Shipbuilding Plant "Starlet" Oleg Frolov.
Construction of the dock h100h14 size 420 meters in the territory of FSUE "Star" will, taking into account the development of project documentation, seven years and will cost 9 billion 739 million rubles, public funding should draw up a 8.8 billion rubles.
At the dock will be installed crane carrying capacity up to a half thousand tons. There will also be organized transportation system for delivery of large building blocks from the slipway of the "Sevmash" at the "star".
The new dock will be built ships with displacement of over one hundred thousand tons - including aircraft carriers, heavy nuclear missile cruiser, floating platforms, etc.
Projected to become the largest in Russia. It will compensate for the loss of shipbuilding capacity, remaining after the collapse of the USSR on the territory of Ukraine. In Severodvinsk currently focuses most of the Russian military shipbuilding capacity. It builds and runs the vast majority of repairs and multi-Russian strategic nuclear submarines. Severodvinsk has the geographic advantage - it is located in inland sea of Russia, near the seats of the Russian garrison largest fleets - the North.
Recall that the representatives of Russia and the Navy Ministry of Defense earlier reported plans to build three or four aircraft carriers for the Russian Navy after 2010.

Well, even the USN needs AF support- tankers, B-52s, AWACS, and logistics.
And the Russians can also use their seaplanes to support the fleet!
As for the RFE, the generals & admirals can be bought like those in Iraq 5 years ago- in fact, many civilian officials there are already on "unofficial" Chinese payroll!
But for now, it just so happened that Russia has has access to all 3 Northern oceans, and her AFs have the range to help the future CV fleet- and there is no political & military need for them to ply the surface waters around Antarctica, Polynesia, or the Carribean- and if need be, a few Bears/Mainstays/Il-38s can get there & back with refueling and/or be stationed in Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, Myanmar, S. Africa, Peru to have persistent presence, with or without CVs, in the Southern Hemisphere for a while.

 

[AegisFC]

USN needs AF support[/B]- tankers, B-52s, AWACS, and logistics.
And the Russians can also use their seaplanes to support the fleet!

That is nothing new, B-52's have been used for mine laying since Vietnam and that article you posted about the maritime uses of the B-52 is more than 20 years old, it specifically mentions use of the planes against the Soviet Naval hordes. That mission no longer exists and their is no squadron of B-52's that are outfitted for this mission. The existing B-52's can still carry the harpoons but but the crews hardly ever practice the mission and any decent AAW Destroyer or Frigate will detect them and shoot them down before they get within the 50 or so miles listed by that article needed to launch their harpoons. B-52's have a huge radar return and will die in the face of any prepared, modern AAW ship.
The use of non-USN AEW is also nothing new, we take USAF and other allies Link-11 and 16 constantly and the USN provides data to them, no big deal.

As for that seaplane, what role do you see that filling that can't be filled by traditional maritime aircraft? We've been over this before in the "Shrinking USN Airwing" thread and no one wants to rehash that again.

 

[Firehorse]

If they don't get organic fixed-wing AWACS, that seaplane could probably be converted into one! Also, longer range sea control, SAR, and tanker roles!

 

[AegisFC]

What advantage would an sea plane AEW have over a regular fixed land based plane? Range isn't one if you have sufficient refueling assets, landing in the water next to a ship sounds neat but sea planes can't handle anything above a calm sea state and even in a calm sea state both the plane and the refueling ship will be at a complete stop and vulnerable to attack, at least 2 or 3 ships UNREPING can maneuver at 12 or so knots.
For the SAR role is also handled by land based air craft very well, if not then the US Coast Guard and other coast guards would be tripping over themselves to get sea planes, usually when a ship is in trouble the sea state isn't something you want to land in and get close to a possibly sinking, possibly on fire ship.
Before you mention supply support for ships MPA aircraft can do that as well, during my 2nd deployment we had a P-3 drop a replacement fire pump next to us in a waterproof pod.

 

[Feanor]

What else caught my attention was the mention of 3-4 AC's instead of 5-6. Slightly more realistic (both in terms of needs and possiblity). Again funding is the principal question. Lack of funding is why the 2015 re-armament plan is falling through. With a new tank planned for service in 2009, the Su-27 fleet modernized to the SM, and purchases of new Su-34, not to mention the heaps of other military equipment Russia desperately needs, it's hard to see this plan come to fruition.

 

[Firehorse]

sea planes can't handle anything above a calm sea state and even in a calm sea state ..

Well, the P6M Sea Master could do in 6-8ft, according to this video-

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QowTqmxYZ1Q"]YouTube - P-6M Seamaster Jet Seaplane: Faster than a B-52 dynmicpara[/ame]

From that hyperlink :

The amphibian may be used as a base around which it is possible to develop various modifications for wide employment in the island and coastal areas not provided with a sufficient number of aerodromes, as well as in the world ocean areas.

The aircraft can be used for the following missions:
search and rescue;
cargo and passenger transportation;
maritime patrol;
military tasks.
..Seaworthiness (wave height, m) 2.2

What is your definition of "calm sea state"?
2.2 meters = 7.2 feet- so, at least IMO, this is not calm, but fairly common open-ocean sea state.
IMO, the USCG may decide to get them again, if they are worth their salt!
On the subject of Russian demographics:

THE United Nations Population Fund projected last week that Russia's population will drop from 142 million today to 100 million in the next 40 to 50 years. ..Officials tout a recent uptick in births. But it will be ephemeral, because it is due to a larger-than-usual cohort of women of child-bearing age who were born during a minor baby boom in the 1980s. After the Soviet Union imploded, Russia fell on hard times, and the birth rate and the population dropped. Between 1992 and 2007, there were 12 million more deaths than births.
And as the workforce shrinks, repercussions will be felt in the military, on farms, and across the economy.
Ethnic Russians already worry that they will cease to be a majority in the country's far east, along the border with China.

For comparison, Japan's population is already 127,433,494 (July 2007 est.)!

Russia's Abortion-Caused Underpopulation Crisis Requires Foreign Workers

 

[Feanor]

Japan's population is also dropping fyi. In any event time will show. Currently birth rates are going up. If the healthcare system is properly financed then perhaps death rates will drop too. If not, then I guess we're screwed.

 

[AegisFC]

Well, the P6M Sea Master could do in 6-8ft, according to this video-

That is normal sea state for most of the worlds oceans on an average day, 9 or 10 foot waves are not uncommon most days off the coast of the US.
Here is a chart of the most common sea states with pictures.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/risk/sea_state_2.htm

Neat video on the Seamaster but it leaves out the problems that killed the program. Namely that it took too long to develop and work all the kinks out of the design (Polaris was coming on line during when it finally came into production), and in the end cost 3 times more than it was supposed to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P6M_Seamaster
I normally don't like Wikipedia but for old stuff like this it isn't too bad.

What is your definition of "calm sea state"?
2.2 meters = 7.2 feet- so, at least IMO, this is not calm, but fairly common open-ocean sea state.

About 6 or 7 foot seas are what I'm most used to dealing with. You can UNREP or VERTREP from another ship in much rougher weather so using one of those for logistical support does not make sense, at all.

IMO, the USCG may decide to get them again, if they are worth their salt!

I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

 

[niteshkjain]

http://www.ptinews.com/pti/ptisite.nsf/0/CFD4C2E8A627708F6525746F00322230?OpenDocument

Moscow, Jun 21 (PTI) Russian Navy's new generation Gorshkov-class frigate under construction could be armed with the Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missiles, boosting the opportunities for the global export of the jointly developed smart weapon.

"The only ship that could feature these missiles is the Project 22350 frigate Admiral Sergei Gorshkov being built at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg," a defence industry source was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti.

Russia apparently had no plans to commission the missile due to its lower range of under 300 kms, but under pressure from the Indian side may consider equipping at least one surface ship with BrahMos.

"Considering that we have only one platform (suitable for BrahMos missiles) we may deploy six of them on the Admiral Gorshkov frigate," the unnamed Russian official was quoted as saying.

The 'Admiral Sergei Gorshkov' frigate is scheduled for launch in 2009. According to some military sources, Russia's Navy intends to procure up to 20 such vessels. PTI

So, Russians have already changed there constitution? As they can only use RUSSIAN weapons.

 

[Feanor]

BrahMos is a joint venture. So technically it can be considered Russian. Anyways where in the Russian constitution does it say Russia can't buy foreign weapons? Russia is already installing French TI from Thales on our new T-90A's, with a deal planned for a joint production facility on Russia soil, as well as a special maintenance center.

 

[Tincanman]

Russia and India's BrahMos missiles

While Russia and India have worked together for many years, lately there seems to have been several issues which could take a toll on their relationship.....the issue with the Indian older Project 877 E Kilos being repaired at Russian shipyards.....i.e., failures in the tests of the Klub missile systems.....+ serious delays on India's (new) Russian carrier's delivery date....and major cost escalations that accompany it, being two of the above....Until the "issues" are clarified, one would think that India may wish to see a more forthcoming attitude on the part of their Russian partners.....before becoming involved with additional
naval partnerships. At the same time, if Russia actually begins to acquire the
BrahMos, then the weapons trade may look like its becoming a "two way" street,
thus smoothing the way for a continued IndoRussian partnership.
Going forward, rumors of India's interest in acquiring Boeing's new P-8 MPA to replace her older TU-142's and other rumors coming forth from Mumbai might be
a glimpse into a "change" in the way the wind is blowing for the above relationship.

 

[nevidimka]

New dock being built in Sevmash for 100 000 tonn ships. Seems to fit perfectly with the suggested idea. Again it seems very unrealistic, and is very reminiscent of previous false statements by Russian Army heads (in particular the empty statements of the 90's era), but there are some signs that this is indeed a real plan.

http://lenta.ru/news/2006/07/04/carrier/

Thats great news. That is a sure step at going for a bigger carrier than the kutznetsovor of a similar size, and it certainly releases Russia's from the predicament of making a compromise between pure carrier and cruiser just to get it out of the Black sea. I'm hoping to see a Ulyanovsk size carrier built by these docks, I hope.

Also what needs to be checked is about its fitment. Is Russia gonna be equipping its carriers with what they are having with the kutznetsov or move a step further? Surely a carrier project coming in probably the next decade will need newer planes to those on kutznetsov?

What kinda AWACS is Russia gonna have for thier new Carrier? Are they gonna be satisfied with Helicopter based AEW which is limited in range and endurance? OR are they gonna revive the Yakovlevs project which was ment for the Ulyanovsk? Pic below:


Is there news of prelimenary concepts surfacing at yakovlev company

 

[Feanor]

The Yakovlev homepage lists a number of their future projets, including potential Yak-130 offspring, and a new passenger jet the Yak-48, as well as some UAV designs. However no news on AWACS. I do recall reading somewhere that the A-50 modernization program saw the first modernized aircraft delivered in 2006. Other then that it seems like there are now new AWACS coming up.

 

[KiwiRob]

Golly gosh if anyone is seriously expecting the Russians to build a class of 100,000 ton super carriers then they seriously need to go take a look at a Russian shipyard, I've been in quite a few and they are archaic and old fashioned.

The largest ships built in Russia recently were a series of 48,000 dwt tankers at Admiralty, the Koreans can knock these out in 6 months, the Russians take 18 to 24 months, even the Croatians built the same class design quicker. Imagine how long a 100,000 dwt carrier would take them.

FWIW Sevmash aren't the only facility able to build big in Russia, Baltisky Zavod have the ability to launch 100,000 DWT 300 meter long ships but they haven't done this yet, and probably never will, the yard is probably going to close after hulls 603 & 604 are built, the only thing that will save it is if the proposed class of 25mw ice-breakers move off the drawing board.

I have visited Russian shipyards and design offices 3 times this year, if you mention the carrier project in any of them they laugh at you, no one within the Russian shipbuilding community that I know think these ships will ever be built. The political will might be there but the actual facilities to build them are a long long way off.

 

[Salty Dog]

I have visited Russian shipyards and design offices 3 times this year, if you mention the carrier project in any of them they laugh at you, no one within the Russian shipbuilding community that I know think these ships will ever be built. The political will might be there but the actual facilities to build them are a long long way off.

Nice information mate. This does not bode a bright future for the INS Vikramaditya at Sevmash.

 

[Chrom]

If the info about new large doc in Sevmash is true, it will be surely used for producing large tankers and similar ships rather than some fantasy carriers.

In long run (2020+) anything can happen. But prior to that time i'm 100% sure there will be no new carrier for russian navy.

 

[Feanor]

Sevmash has had a change of leadership following the Gorshkov disaster. So we'll see where it goes. I can well believe that the Baltic shipyards are in complete disrepair. Sevmash has pretty much taken over all of the shipbuilding.

 

[crobato]

Hopefully, because the disasters are piling up. This year, a Norwegian contract for tankers had been canceled, and finishing the Borei class SSBN is behind schedule.

 

[Feanor]

The Norwegian contract is beign renegotiated. It wasn't cancelled entirely iirc. And the Yuri Dolgorukiy is going to undergo sea trials this year. So again, the situation with Sevmash is bad, but not disasterous. Baltiyskiy Zavod on the other hand may very well get shut down entirely. It seems that there are two-three major companies in each defense area, out of which one has most of the political leverage, and the rest are left with the scraps. In the aero-space it's Sukhoi, and a little bit of Tupolev, with MiG and Yakovlev left with the little contracts. In the tank field its UVZ, with Omsktransmash being turned into a repair depot. In the shipbuilding industry it's Sevmash. Anyways what I really want to see is whether the Stereguschiy class see serial production. That will be proof that the Russian Navy is getting somewhere. I certainly believe that Sevmash can build one ship of a given class, even if it's a SSBN. What I have a harder time believing is that they can produce multiple ships in short time with a reasonable price tag and decent quality.

 

[KiwiRob]

Feanor the Norwegian contract is not being renegioated, it's totally canned, however Sevmash have stated that they will build the ships and find a buyer once completed, I also disagree with you stating "in the shipbuilding industry it's Sevmash", there are multiple players, they (Sevmash) just happen to be the worst of the lot, Admiralty, Baltisky (if they stay open), Krasnoye Sormovo, Almaz are all productive...there also many smaller yards still producing vessels.