Death Star Moment for WWII Ships

[davros]

Yeah torpedos have always been a good weapon against the battleship.

 

[AegisFC]

I'm afraid not, unless some well informed person makes me look stupid, the last of the battleships have been struck from the register. In an era of expenditures on Harpoon, Cruise Missiles, Nuclear Submarines et al, I think it's unlikely the battleship proper will ever be revived.

Hopefully not, a lot of the infrastructure required to support them just does not exist anymore (schools for the guns and boilers, maintenance facilities, ect) and would need to be recreated.

Saying that, I thought it was quite astute that the Americans retained the 4 Iowa class battleships in the reserve.

That can be debated, they spent more time in mothballs than in active service and one of the only reasons they were revived in the 80's was because they could mount more of the old ABL Tomahawks than any other ship the USN had.

They proved they were still very useful naval artillery in Desert Storm, and lets face it if they'd ever managed to get in a surface combat they'd have presented a headache. It'd take quite a few SSMs to knock one of those out. I think I'm right in remembering there was a lot of flak at the decision to retire them. I'll see if I can find a link.

I doubt it, it was a 50+ year old ship that was armored in places to protect against surface running torpedoes and large caliber gun fire, a modern ASM would most likely hit above the armor belt or dive down the stacks where you can not armor. Plus it has 50+ year old damage control facilities and requires escorts to protect it against ASM's. Besides you don't need to get through the armor to mission kill a ship.
Their is pretty much one main group that is the most vocal about keeping the battleships around and they ignore simple facts like it takes the same number of people to crew one battleship as to crew about 3 DDG's and that historically the most effective artillery support has come from around the 5 inch gun size, it is more accurate and you can get it closer to friendly troops than you can with a 16 inch monster gun.

Seems like the USN just isn't big on naval artillery any more.

No, it is just cheaper to use missiles than to reactivate, retrain the people needed, manufacture new gun barrels, new ammunition, new power bags, ect.

 

[AegisFC]

I read somewhere that the thick armored belts of a battleship would give brilliant protection against cruise missiles like the harpoon as there not designed to go through armored belts.

Except the armor belt was designed and placed to protect against gun fire not missiles. Their are plenty of places on a battleship that are either not armored or minimally armored and a mission kill is just as good as sinking it most of the time.

 

[davros]

depends what battleship it is, if it has the all or nothing principal then maybe but a ship like vanguard was very well armored, you have to remember that these missiles are not designed to go through a thick armored belt and that the battleships had to be very well armored all there critical areas as shells could land at many different angles.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Could you count a kiev as a modern battleship? It definatly fulfills the sea controll elemnt of the definition.

I guess the closest thing to a battleship being built today is the DD-1000 Zumwalt class, with automatic 6 inch guns she will bring naval artillary back in from the cold. Interestingly it seems that the new trend is for larger naval guns, up to 6 inch (155mm). IIRC the RN was looking at replaceing all of its 5 inch stiff with 155's.

 

[Lostfleet]

that historically the most effective artillery support has come from around the 5 inch gun size, it is more accurate and you can get it closer to friendly troops than you can with a 16 inch monster gun.

.

5 inch gun could be more effective but if I knew I had 16 inch guns aimed at me and even if it had less chance of hitting me, I would just get out of that area

 

[RubiconNZ]

Could you count a kiev as a modern battleship? It definatly fulfills the sea controll elemnt of the definition.

I guess the closest thing to a battleship being built today is the DD-1000 Zumwalt class, with automatic 6 inch guns she will bring naval artillary back in from the cold. Interestingly it seems that the new trend is for larger naval guns, up to 6 inch (155mm). IIRC the RN was looking at replaceing all of its 5 inch stiff with 155's.

I reckon in using WW2 classifications the DD-1000 is a Battlecruiser fast, lighter armour, yet well, in terms of Naval fire support well I thing the Ohio SSGN would be the true definition, 154 Tac 4 Tomahawks, well protected ship through low observability rather than heavy armour, plus anti shipping capability with torpedoes and maybe even sub launch harpoons, but I suppose we would have to call it a battle boat as not to offend the submariners .

 

[Grand Danois]

There wasn t a single dreadnought sinked in WW1, and taken into consideration that there is no more dreadnought in WW2, it is safe to say the dreadnoughts is the safest warship ever exist.

You'll have to excuse my pedantism.

SMS Szent István:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9900E6D6163EE433A25750C1A9609C946996D6CF

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilPvSYd_-Es"]YouTube - SZENT ISTVAN[/ame]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szent_Istvan

 

[Tasman]

You'll have to excuse my pedantism.

Good one GD!

This is a famous bit of footage as, AFAIK, it is one of only two Dreadnought battleships to be filmed sinking after a wartime action. It features in numerous videos and DVDs that have been made about battleships. After watching the video I think that the fact that only 89 men were lost is remarkable.The other ship that was filmed whilst sinking after being torpedoed was HMS Barham. After capsizing Barham suffered a catastrophic explosion.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSY94QVIss&feature=related"]YouTube - The Sinking of HMS Barham[/ame]

Re the comment by ever4244 that there were no Dreadnoughts in WW2, most naval historians would regard HMS Barham as a Dreadnought, although she and other surviving Dreadnoughts from WW1 were simply referred to as battleships by then. The term battleship was revived and applied to the surviving Dreadnoughts when the last of the earlier Pre-Dreadnought battleships were scrapped or relegated to training or coast defence duties shortly after the end of WW2.

Tas

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

RIP those poor bastards on the Barnham. 4 minets from impact to the mags going. They didnt stand a chance. Thanx for the footage tas, i allways wondered what that ship was.

 

[Tasman]

RIP those poor bastards on the Barnham. 4 minets from impact to the mags going. They didnt stand a chance.

The catastrophic explosions that took out the three British battlecruisers at Jutland, along with Hood, Barham and the IJN's Yamato in WW2, raise questions about British magazine design and practices. After Jutland, the British took many additional precautions to prevent future magazine explosions but this failed to save Hood or Barham (Barham would have sunk anyway but loss of life would almost certainly have been much lower if she had not blown up). The Japanese ship had been hit numerous times by torpedoes and bombs so the fact that fires eventually spread to the magazines is not surprising. It seems to me that the RN suffered more than other major navies in this regard.

Tas

 

[davros]

The british handling of cordite was partly responsible for the loss of ships at Jutland, Designs of latter british capital ships seemed to produce a much more sturdy design the nelson's and KGV class plus the Hood was an old ship by 1941 and needed a major rebuild.

 

[Tasman]

The british handling of cordite was partly responsible for the loss of ships at Jutland, Designs of latter british capital ships seemed to produce a much more sturdy design the nelson's and KGV class plus the Hood was an old ship by 1941 and needed a major rebuild.

Efforts to speed up the rate of fire and spillage from the silk bags containing the cordite sometimes resulted in a trail from the turret floor to the magazine!

Certainly none of the new British battleships were lost to magazine explosions and POW was hit numerous times, including by at least six torpedoes, before sinking.

Tas

 

[Lostfleet]

One thing I noticed at the video of the sinking of Szent Istvan is that the crew looked rather calm when it was listed heavily. They began to scatter around when the ship begin to roll rapidly but before that they looked like they were doing their everyday job.

I noticed this on other warships sinking, one example is Zuikaku sinking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lowering_the_flag_on_Zuikaku.jpg

they had the time to lower the flag and salute. If a warship is sinking slowly ( what I mean by slowly is not blowing up and going down in a few minutes) Navy personnel act rather cool to the fact that their ship is sinking. I was expecting not panic but a lot of people running around instead of walking.

Also concerning the magazine explosions for the Royal Navy, can it be because they had more action compared to other Navies? Rather than faulty ammunition procedures and tools ( at least for WWII)

 

[Tasman]

Also concerning the magazine explosions for the Royal Navy, can it be because they had more action compared to other Navies? Rather than faulty ammunition procedures and tools ( at least for WWII)

Good point.

There is also a lot that remains unknown about the causes of the explosions on Hood and Barham. Barham was hit by a number of torpedoes and it seems likely that one damaged the protection enabling fire to penetrate the aft magazine. Also, if sailors were rushing to get out as the ship began to capsize it is possible the doors to the aft magazine may not have been secured. In the case of Hood it is generally accepted that a large fire started in a 4" magazine. Before her action with Bismark, HMS Hood had her 5.5" secondary armament replaced by additional twin 4" HA/LA guns and the need for large amounts of AA ammo to be carried meant that the magazine arrangements were probably less than ideal. She also was fitted with UP launchers (for AA rockets), another rapidly fitted wartime addition that would have left additional flammable sources. It is possible that a 4" magazine might have blown up and vented into one of the main mags. Because of the small number of survivors (only three from Hood) the actual causes must remain speculation.

Tas

 

[Super Nimrod]

Has there ever been a dive or ROV sent to the Hood in her final resting place ? It would make an interesting TV programme.

 

[Lostfleet]

Has there ever been a dive or ROV sent to the Hood in her final resting place ? It would make an interesting TV programme.

According to the wikipedia, Chanell 4 and ITN funded expedition found the wreck of Hood in July 2001 so I am sure they have some TV program showing that.

 

[Lostfleet]

Tasman,

was there any failsafe system for 4" shells just in case they fell down on their nose and detonated? Because once the ship begins to roll, shells in transition from storage to upper decks would be not tied to anything and roll all over and hit other objects that might cause them to detonate.

 

[Tasman]

Tasman,

was there any failsafe system for 4" shells just in case they fell down on their nose and detonated? Because once the ship begins to roll, shells in transition from storage to upper decks would be not tied to anything and roll all over and hit other objects that might cause them to detonate.

I don't know about any 'failsafe system' for shells in the time between the fuses being set and loading them into a gun but I can't imagine that fused shells would have been placed in such a way that they could roll about as the ship pitched and rolled. I'm unaware of any incidents in a ship where a shell has accidently detonated as a result of dropping on its nose. However, someone else may have information regarding this.

AA shells designed for barrage fire would have had a time delay fuse, activated when fired, although some were also designed to operate on impact in case they hit a target before the time delay had functioned.

Tas

 

[KGB]

Their are plenty of places on a battleship that are either not armored or minimally armored and a mission kill is just as good as sinking it most of the time.

The way the Bismark was doomed by a hit on the rudder