Australian Army Discussions and Updates

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PeterM

Active Member
Interesting post, thanks Croc

It seems we should have a decision later this year considering the end of life for the existing M198s is 2010

Wasn't the ADF offered ex dutch PzH 2000 last year?

more info on the various options is available here

defence.gov.au/ARMY/8_12mdm/Land_17.htm

It will be interesting to see whether the Army refurbished thier existing M198s or purchase the M777A2. Quite probably this would be similar to the Korean KH179 conversons from existing M114s

from janes.com/extracts/extract/jaa/jaa_0511.html

Development of the KH179 155 mm howitzer by the Kia Machine Tool Company (which is today known as the WIA Corporation) began in 1979 and was completed in 1982. It has been in service with the Republic of Korea Army since early 1983. The conversion programme is believed to have been completed some years ago. It is estimated that South Korea has about 1,700 155 mm towed artillery systems but it is not known as to how many of these are M114s upgraded to the KH179 standard. The 155 mm KH179 howitzer is a conversion of the American M114A1 howitzer and carriage upgraded to mount a new 155 mm/39 calibre barrel. Certain other parts of the carriage have been altered to suit the new barrel and new fire-control equipment has been fitted. The KH179 is light enough to be airlifted by a Boeing CH-47C/D Chinook helicopter and can also be carried inside a Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules transport aircraft. The new 155 mm/39 calibre barrel is of monobloc construction with an interrupted screw breech mechanism. The rifling has a constant 1:20 twist and there are 48 grooves. High-strength alloy steel is used throughout the barrel construction and heat treatment and autofrettaging are employed to provide maximum barrel life. Separate recoil and recuperator systems are used in what is stated to be a variable length, hydropneumatic, independent design.
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croc

New Member
winnyfield said:
They offerred their PzH 2000 production slots - effectively new. They Dutch basically figured that they had order too many.
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You find that only 18 or less were yet to be built, rest of them were to come from the Dutch stock already fielded if it was to meet the requirements for 24 or 30 units. This could pose real nightmare for us if we end up with two variants of the Pzh2000. I seem to remember that Dutch had also put out on the market currently fielded Pzh2000 as well other military hardware.

Big question is what version has been offered, Aussie version or the Dutch version. Offer of two different configurations does not make lot of sense to me.
 
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Navor86

Member
Can someone please tell me why they are just want to get 35 Lightweight Howitzers?

On another note.
Why do the Aussies have 2 TAGs with each about 100 Soldiers. It is clear that 1 TAG for each coast but why are so many Soldiers needed for domestic CT Role? Take for Example the CTTAG in the NZSAS which seems just to have 18 Men assigned and is permanent which means that the 2 other Sqn are maintained in there green role. Wouldnt it make sense to withdrew TAG Role from SASR and 4th RAR and establishing a seperate TAG Organization with Volunteers from SASR and 4th RAR and maybe Police, that would free Soldiers for their Wartime Role as it seems that this is atm more needed than domestic CT
 
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flyboyEB

New Member
Navor86 said:
Can someone please tell me why they are just want to get 35 Lightweight Howitzers?

On another note.
Why do the Aussies have 2 TAGs with each about 100 Soldiers. It is clear that 1 TAG for each coast but why are so many Soldiers needed for domestic CT Role? Take for Example the CTTAG in the NZSAS which seems just to have 18 Men assigned and is permanent which means that the 2 other Sqn are maintained in there green role. Wouldnt it make sense to withdrew TAG Role from SASR and 4th RAR and establishing a seperate TAG Organization with Volunteers from SASR and 4th RAR and maybe Police, that would free Soldiers for their Wartime Role as it seems that this is atm more needed than domestic CT
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The Army only needs 35 of the lightweight howitzers because they only have 6 Artillery batteries that need them (I think).

Seeing as you're comparing the TAG to the NZ CTTAG which is appearantly very small I'll point out that the Kiwis only have a very small army. The NZSAS has the CTTAG and two Sabre Squadrons, the SASR has one squadron in TAG West and two in 'green-ish' roles. 4RAR maintains one company in the TAG out of their four Commando Companies. That isn't a massive drain on the manpower of either unit. I don't know how many men were used to sieze the MV Pong Su but it was surely more than 18, and most CT operations would need at least more than 18 men to carry them out. The TAG is prepared for multiple incidents all over the country at the same time.

The TAG isn't only a domestic CT unit either. TAG (West) is also tasked with rescueing Australian hostages overseas and both TAGs with protecting the oil rigs off the coast. A police unit might have trouble being allowed to be deployed on such operations with all the buearocratic handwringing that goes on.

Also, being trained in CT for the duration of the time that the SASR and 4RAR blokes are in the TAG is surely helpfull if you're ever in a 'green' role and need to clear a building etc.
 
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RubiconNZ

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
flyboyEB said:
Seeing as you're comparing the TAG to the NZ CTTAG which is appearantly very small I'll point out that the Kiwis only have a very small army. The NZSAS has the CTTAG and two Sabre Squadrons, the SASR has one squadron in TAG West and two in 'green-ish' roles. 4RAR maintains one company in the TAG out of their four Commando Companies. That isn't a massive drain on the manpower of either unit. I don't know how many men were used to sieze the MV Pong Su but it was surely more than 18, and most CT operations would need at least more than 18 men to carry them out. The TAG is prepared for multiple incidents all over the country at the same time.
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Not to mention NZPS has a very capable Special Tactics Group STG, which is more than capable of handling most situations, the CTTAG has only been put on standby once once anyway, they can handle business just fine.
 
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Navor86

Member
Thanks for the clarification on TAG,but concerning the Lightweight Howitzers.
Nomally there are 6-8 Guns per Battery + Training Battery. That would mean 36-48 guns + Training,so it seems 35 will not cover the needs of 2 Regiments + Training.
 
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flyboyEB

New Member
Navor86 said:
Thanks for the clarification on TAG,but concerning the Lightweight Howitzers.
Nomally there are 6-8 Guns per Battery + Training Battery. That would mean 36-48 guns + Training,so it seems 35 will not cover the needs of 2 Regiments + Training.
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I just re-read Croc's post from 2 days ago, the Army is only looking to field 4 Battery's of lightweight towed 155 mm howitzers. Hope that answers it ::D
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Navor86 said:
Can someone please tell me why they are just want to get 35 Lightweight Howitzers?
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As others have stated, RRAA's batteries are equipped with 6x guns each.

35x guns will allow RRAA to maintain 5x operational gun batteries (3x bty's in 3 Brigade, 2x Bty's in 7 brigade), plus a training battery and guns for the trade training schools, attrition etc.

The size of the battery gives a clue as to why certain numbers of guns have been requested for tender for the SPG:

18x guns equals: 2x batteries. (2x bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt only, plus training schools, training bty etc).

24x guns equals: 3x batteries. (2x Bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt, plus 1x bty for 1 Field Regt - 7 Brigade, plus training schools etc).

30x guns equals: 4x batteries (2x Bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt, 2x Bty's for 1 Field Regt, plus training schools etc).

Regards

AD
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
whats the extra r for in RRAA...it used to be Royal Australian Artillery.
has their title changed?:confused:
Also,8/12 used to have 3 battery,s not 2...is A battery (Para) to be disbanded?
 
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flyboyEB

New Member
old faithful said:
whats the extra r for in RRAA...it used to be Royal Australian Artillery.
has their title changed?:confused:
Also,8/12 used to have 3 battery,s not 2...is A battery (Para) to be disbanded?
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RRAA is the Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery.
A Battery, 4th Field Regiment surely won't be disbanded, it's one of the oldest in the Army, but since 3RAR are becoming light infantry they'll surely at least drop the para role. Anyone know what's going on? :confused:
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
No its not. Ill re phrase it. Its RAA. Royal Australian Artillery. Not RRAA. Regt is the drop shorts way of saying Battalian, and Battery is their way of saying company...troop = Pl.

All the reg bns...1 , 2, 3 4,5,6,7,8/9RAR belong to the same Regt. The Royal Australian Regiment. and the RAR is part of the RAINF Corp, which includes the SASR, the Reserve Regiments and the reserve Commando Regt.(whoops, forgot 10 IRC! Idependent Rifle Company)

Artillery, Aviation and Armoured and signals corps battalian sized groups are called regiments.
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
according to your link, you are right. Recently...1950 infact. still, having served with 3RAR for the majority of my career, and having A battery 8/12 as my back up, I can honestly say i had never heard of RRAA, just RAA....go figure.:confused:
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
i cant post a link off this thing (apple mac) but google A battery 8/12 Med regt RAA there,s a great site with some great history and pics there.
 
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Navor86

Member
Aussie Digger said:
As others have stated, RRAA's batteries are equipped with 6x guns each.

35x guns will allow RRAA to maintain 5x operational gun batteries (3x bty's in 3 Brigade, 2x Bty's in 7 brigade), plus a training battery and guns for the trade training schools, attrition etc.

The size of the battery gives a clue as to why certain numbers of guns have been requested for tender for the SPG:

18x guns equals: 2x batteries. (2x bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt only, plus training schools, training bty etc).

24x guns equals: 3x batteries. (2x Bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt, plus 1x bty for 1 Field Regt - 7 Brigade, plus training schools etc).

30x guns equals: 4x batteries (2x Bty's for 8/12 Mdm Regt, 2x Bty's for 1 Field Regt, plus training schools etc).

Regards

AD
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Therefore if they go for the 35/30 mix they would have theoretically enough Arty to support 9 Infantry Bns,right?
But why has 8/12 Regt 2 Btys? Is it because 1st Brigade has just 2 Infantry Bn?

On an other Hand it seems for me logical that 1st Briagde gets tracked Howitzers,as its other Formations have also Heavy tracked vehicles,but as 7 Brigade is an "wheeled Formation" isnt it a bit too much that they get a tracked Arty? I mean normally Tracked Units get tgracked Arty and wheeled an Light Formations wheeled or towed Arty.
 
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croc

New Member
Estimated expenditure for Land 17 is AUD450 million (USD422 million) to AUD600 million with an in-service date of 2011. The DoD spokesperson said government second pass approval was anticipated in mid-2009.
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Wonder why it's taking so long to make a decision. Based on the article, some 12months or more to make a selection just over two contenders. :unknown
 
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flyboyEB

New Member
old faithful said:
BTW,Thanks for posting the link.
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Not at all :D

Sadly, here's a less fortunate link to post:
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=7631

SPECIAL OPERATIONS SOLDIER KILLED, FOUR WOUNDED

An Australian soldier serving with the Special Operations Task Group (SOTG) in Afghanistan has been killed by Taliban extremists in Oruzgan Province, approximately 25km southeast of Tarin Kowt.

Chief of Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said the soldier was killed during a gun-battle in the early hours of this morning (AEST) when Australian soldiers were engaged by Taliban extremists using small arms fire and rocket propelled grenades.

“Lance Corporal Jason Marks, who was 27 years of age and from the Sydney-based 4th Battalion (Commando), the Royal Australian Regiment, was killed just after 6pm,” Air Chief Marshal Houston said.

Four other soldiers were also seriously wounded during the contact. Their condition is assessed as not life threatening. Due to the nature of wounds, one of more of those hospitalised may need to be evacuated to other facilities for more advanced medical treatment. In accordance with Defence policy, their names will not be released.

The wounded soldiers and the body of Lance Corporal Marks have since been evacuated by helicopter to a medical facility at Tarin Kowt. Repatriation arrangements for Lance Corporal Marks’ body will begin immediately.

“This is a sad day and, on behalf of the entire Defence Organisation, I extend my deepest sympathies to the family, colleagues and friends of Lance Corporal Marks. Our best wishes are also with the wounded soldiers in the hope that they make a speedy recovery.

Defence has notified the immediate families of all soldiers involved and is providing assistance to them during this very difficult time.

“Our soldiers continue to acquit themselves magnificently and the SOTG continues to take the fight to the Taliban. However, due to the nature of special operations, no further details can be released at this time,” Air Chief Marshal Houston said.
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R.I.P
 
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