The SA80 and AR18 assault rifles

[Cutaway]

The SA80 is basically a bullpup version of the AR18 as it uses the exact same action, But it didnt turn out as good as it was supposed to be. The AR18 that was also manufactured by Howa of Japan and Sterling of the UK was a simple but very reliable weapon.

So if the SA80 uses the exact same/similar parts of the reliable AR18, Then why did it turn out to be a burden?, Poorly manufactured parts?

Also: Can AR18 components be used in the SA80?, If so which parts are interchangeable?

 

[winnyfield]

See this; a history of the SA80.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/10/military.jamesmeek

Appears to be a multitude of problems. The 1980s were also pretty grim times for Britain.

Specifically about the AR18 influences:

....

Many of the key parts of the SA80 were copied from the US Armalite AR18, then made in Britain under licence by the Sterling gun factory in Dagenham, using the pressed-steel technique. The former owner of the factory, James Edmiston, says that his chief designer had seen an early prototype SA80 at an arms fair, stripped it down and discovered that bolt, bolt carrier, magazine, springs and firing pin had been taken from an AR18. "Not once did Enfield ever ask Sterling for information on the AR18," he says. "I know of at least one component that they 'copied' incorrectly which could well have made a difference to reliability."

....

 

[V4.SKUNK]

Thats the reason why the SA80A1 was un reliable!!! Because it was using parts bassicly designed for another weapon.
H&K made the SA80 a very good weapon, it's the most reliable assault rifle and the second most accurate.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

H&K made the SA80 a very good weapon, it's the most reliable assault rifle and the second most accurate.

That is just and opinion there is no fact to back that up.

 

[winnyfield]

The AR18 action was adopted by HK (G36) who in turn used that as a basis to modify the SA80. The A1 sufferred from poor design and poor workmanship.

What's so damning is that there are other bullpup 5.56mm rifles out there that managed to get it right - no where near the levels of problems of the SA80.

 

[V4.SKUNK]

That is just and opinion there is no fact to back that up.

LOL it's a fact.
look at the MOD web site or Army technology and even Janes web sites.
SA80 is better than AN-94,HK416,M16,M4,G36 and M468.

 

[DavidDCM]

Post the facts in this thread. "Go look yourself" is nothing. I don't believe you.

 

[winnyfield]

LOL it's a fact.
look at the MOD web site or Army technology and even Janes web sites.
SA80 is better than AN-94,HK416,M16,M4,G36 and M468.

What do mean by better?

From the opinions that I've heard (just opinions), the SA80 is the best rifle on a static range but in the field, there are others that are preferable. For what it is (a modern bullpup) it's too heavy, and it's only now that it's starting to become modular.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Still just an opinion. You are still wrong, why would Britain's own (SAS) use M16's when they go out to battle? Why doesn't the U.S test the SA 80 for SOCOM. Yeah out in the rifle range good rifle that is if it holds up, and out in the battle field not so lucky.

 

[V4.SKUNK]

All you lot are lazy twats, why should i bring the facts to the table to a bunch of idiots that can't even be bothered to do a simple search??? You should all grow up and start doing stuff for your selves... I bet your "mommy" must still wipe your asses.
British SAS/SBS mostly use 7.62 weaponry for obvious reasons that i'm not going to explain(that you probably won't know).
I have a question, if your interested in this stuff, why are none of you in the military???

 

[V4.SKUNK]

What do mean by better?

From the opinions that I've heard (just opinions), the SA80 is the best rifle on a static range but in the field, there are others that are preferable. For what it is (a modern bullpup) it's too heavy, and it's only now that it's starting to become modular.

Why don't you use common sense and logic and read all my posts in this thread, or better yet why don't you read all of the thread...

 

[DavidDCM]

All you lot are lazy twats, why should i bring the facts to the table to a bunch of idiots that can't even be bothered to do a simple search??? You should all grow up and start doing stuff for your selves... I bet your "mommy" must still wipe your asses.
British SAS/SBS mostly use 7.62 weaponry for obvious reasons that i'm not going to explain(that you probably won't know).
I have a question, if your interested in this stuff, why are none of you in the military???

Well, I used to be in the military. And even if not, what would that show?

What about you? Let me guess, not old enough

Do I have to teach you about basic rules of human conversation? If you make a statement, then be able to prove it. If you are unable to prove it, than don't wonder people don't believe you.

It is not our task to verify YOUR points, it's of course YOUR task to verify YOUR points.

Calling your dialogue partners "lazy twats" doesn't really help you in building up credibility. On the contrary it makes those very "lazy twats" think that after being unable to prove your points, you now, instead of admitting your errors like a real man, retreat into childish insults, in the pitiable hope that no one will notice your inability to discuss.

Maybe, in a couple of years, you'll be wise enough to understand this. Until then I hope you don't cause to much harm in your nation's Armed Forces, even though I feel really sorry for them for letting you join them.

Good bye, nice to have known you.

 

[V4.SKUNK]

Well, I used to be in the military. And even if not, what would that show?

What about you? Let me guess, not old enough

Do I have to teach you about basic rules of human conversation? If you make a statement, then be able to prove it. If you are unable to prove it, than don't wonder people don't believe you.

It is not our task to verify YOUR points, it's of course YOUR task to verify YOUR points.

Calling your dialogue partners "lazy twats" doesn't really help you in building up credibility. On the contrary it makes those very "lazy twats" think that after being unable to prove your points, you now, instead of admitting your errors like a real man, retreat into childish insults, in the pitiable hope that no one will notice your inability to discuss.

Maybe, in a couple of years, you'll be wise enough to understand this. Until then I hope you don't cause to much harm in your nation's Armed Forces, even though I feel really sorry for them for letting you join them.

Good bye, nice to have known you.

HAHAHA Ohh how i laughed...

 

[Cutaway]

Back to topic

Still just an opinion. You are still wrong, why would Britain's own (SAS) use M16's when they go out to battle? Why doesn't the U.S test the SA 80 for SOCOM. Yeah out in the rifle range good rifle that is if it holds up, and out in the battle field not so lucky.

Its possible that SOCOM eventually will test the SA80 but they will more likley go for the FN SCAR, HK416/417. If it turns out a sound rifle, it may be adopted by the US Military or even lead to a derivative.

 

[DavidDCM]

HAHAHA Ohh how i laughed...

Exactly what I expected.

Seriously, I don't like these flame-baits in the Internet, but you are just too grateful a victim, I can't resist.

@cutaway: Don't forget that the SA80 is not among the newest on the market. I don't even think the manufacturer still tries to sell it.

 

[Chino]

I don't even think the manufacturer still tries to sell it.

I heard UK tried to give some away to a certain African country.

 

[Salgado]

hi

it goog

 

[King_Typhoon]

SA80 Is Fine Weapon - In Accuracy Shot! Score Kill Easy! That Other Rifle Because Scope Is Standard Of British Army

Only Rat Them Out About It Is Reliabily Thought BAEs Own Heckler & Koch Upgrade It Weapon... It Say Better That M-16 or M-4 Whatever Else Weapon! And It Still Heavy For Service! Hard Say Accuracy Vs Reliabilty With important In battlefield is, ACCURACY!

I Think Is It Better If It Is Sell It All Storage Or Whatever Buy New Generation Assault Rifle Such As G-36 K For Standard And G-36 C For Airbourne It Will Solve Problem Reliabity Problem!

 

[ASFC]

All you lot are lazy twats, why should i bring the facts to the table to a bunch of idiots that can't even be bothered to do a simple search??? You should all grow up and start doing stuff for your selves... I bet your "mommy" must still wipe your asses.
British SAS/SBS mostly use 7.62 weaponry for obvious reasons that i'm not going to explain(that you probably won't know).
I have a question, if your interested in this stuff, why are none of you in the military???

Oh dear god.....yes because insulting people is the way to conduct a debate.

UKSF use 5.56mm like the rest of the Army, and use the canadian rebuild of the M16, the C7. I believe the reason behind it is that the change lever on the SA80 is in a difficult to reach place, making it hard to change in a firefight, as well as the other problems the A1 had. The A2 is a good weapon, if it was crap then the Army would have replaced as it would have put soldiers lives at risk. A good assault rifle will be both accurate enough for the battlefield and reliable, probably reliabilty more so as if it cannot fire, it doesn't matter how accurate it is if it doesn't work!

H&K don't try and sell it, as they have better products to offer. To be honest, the problems the A1 had means that the weapon continues to get a bad name. As far as I am aware, countries that have operated it are the UK, Zimbabwe, Venezeula, and Jamaica, and only the UK and Jamaica still use it.

Rumour has it we left some A1s on a couple of ships that we sold to an Eastern European country for a highly inflated price :wink:

 

[Chino]

IIRC, Enfield or some such UK company made the SA80, and H&K rebuilt them.

So, H&K can't sell the upgraded SA80 even if they want to as it is technically not a H&K product, right?

So, assuming some country wants to buy the SA80, who should they buy them from? The UK government?

Of course, as someone already said, no one is making any attempts to buy, or indeed... sell, the SA80.

But, to those familiar with the SA80 - what are the advantages of the upgraded SA80 over existing bullpups?