Death Star Moment for WWII Ships

[Lostfleet]

I dont know if historic topics are allowed here, if not my apologies,

Dreadnought type ships always have exploded, killing most on board and sinking immediately either because of a direct hit to Ammunition Storage ( as in Hood) or because of improrer stored ammunition exploding by itself.

In theory, can a WWII or even a WWI dreadnought type of ship ( Iowa, POW, Yamato, Bismarck etc.) can explode because of a direct hit not to its ammunition storage but to its boilers. Just like in Star Wars where they drop a missile to the exhaust of Death Star, can an aircraft bomb or even a shell can penetrate through a funnel or close to it and make a huge ship blow up?

 

[davros]

I am not sure it would blow the ship up if you hit the boiler room you would just knock the boilers out. On those Dreadnoughts the Magazines were always the week spot, I have actually just read an excellent book on the Hood, a shell from Bismark hit the 4in magazine that then blow up the aft 15in magazine although no one knows the exact details of the hit, Luck had a lot to play in these Dreadnought encounters if that shell had hit another part of the ship she would not have blown up.

 

[ever4244]

I dont know if historic topics are allowed here, if not my apologies,

Dreadnought type ships always have exploded, killing most on board and sinking immediately either because of a direct hit to Ammunition Storage ( as in Hood) or because of improrer stored ammunition exploding by itself.

In theory, can a WWII or even a WWI dreadnought type of ship ( Iowa, POW, Yamato, Bismarck etc.) can explode because of a direct hit not to its ammunition storage but to its boilers. Just like in Star Wars where they drop a missile to the exhaust of Death Star, can an aircraft bomb or even a shell can penetrate through a funnel or close to it and make a huge ship blow up?

There wasn t a single dreadnought sinked in WW1, and taken into consideration that there is no more dreadnought in WW2, it is safe to say the dreadnoughts is the safest warship ever exist.

Hood from my point of view can be classed as a battle cruiser.

the ships exploded and sank in WW1 is the battle cuisers in brithish side

They do not has the partition cell to block the explosion in the turret futher expanding into main magazine. therefore once the turret penetrated by the hit, the whole ship is doomed. It costed British three battle cruiser to discover this lethal defect.---- The commanding ship of the van-garde fleet was also hit on the turret, seeing the flame expanding deeper,the turret officer resolutely ordered: "water main magzine." One more second, the commander of the fleet, who would become the future british admiral in late WW1 would be a corpse as well.

One the other hand, German navy has learn the lesson from the previous battle due to the exactly same scenario. So all though one of their battle cruiser lose whole her main turret and heavily slantwise, she was still able to steal back to home.

In the whole war, no dreadnought was losed, simply because both sides do not want to risk these ships and no gun can penetrate its armor.

 

[davros]

A few battleships were sunk during WW1, Battlecruiser had the firepower of a battleship but the armour and speed of a heavycruiser.

 

[Lostfleet]

Davros and ever4244, thank you for the information,

Well I guess direct hit to an ammunition store is the only way to blow up those ships, I was hoping that there was a way to sink a ship in that size by just dropping a bomb through its funnel

Refering to the incident where one of the gunner officers flooded the ammunition store after a fire erupted in there, drowning himself and the crew working in those quarters but saving the ship, do you remember the name of the ship I couldn't find on the internet.

And one more thing Ever4244, I thought dreadnought is a type of ship that both included battleship and battlecruiser (a ship with an all single caliber primary gun instead of many different caliber guns.)

 

[davros]

Yeah dreadnought's normally include battlecruisers as well.

 

[Gryphon]

Yamato Death Star Moment

While not classed a 'Dreadnought', Imperial Japan's WW2 Yamato remains the
largest Battleship ever built at about 73,000 ton displacement. She exploded
off the coast of Japan on April 6th 1945. The plume could be seen from the
southern most Islands of Japan some 130 miles away.

Although she was hit multiple times and her death was a slow sinking until
fires reached the main magazines, it was a horrific explosion. Some great
pics on the link below:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-xz/yamato-n.htm

 

[Tasman]

Refering to the incident where one of the gunner officers flooded the ammunition store after a fire erupted in there, drowning himself and the crew working in those quarters but saving the ship, do you remember the name of the ship I couldn't find on the internet.

The battlecruiser was HMS Lion, flagship of Admiral Beatty, Jellicoe's second in command and CO of the battlecruiser force. The gunnery officer was Major F. J. W. Harvey, Royal Marines, who was posthumously awarded a VC for his actions. Beattie later replaced Jellicoe as fleet commander.

Tas

 

[ever4244]

Davros and ever4244, thank you for the information,

Well I guess direct hit to an ammunition store is the only way to blow up those ships, I was hoping that there was a way to sink a ship in that size by just dropping a bomb through its funnel

Refering to the incident where one of the gunner officers flooded the ammunition store after a fire erupted in there, drowning himself and the crew working in those quarters but saving the ship, do you remember the name of the ship I couldn't find on the internet.

And one more thing Ever4244, I thought dreadnought is a type of ship that both included battleship and battlecruiser (a ship with an all single caliber primary gun instead of many different caliber guns.)

En， infact, I remember in some cases, a battle ship was crippled by a bomb right through the funnel to engine room.

although in this case the bomb will not directly sink a battle ship because a bomb's power is not enough. Yet in many cases, losing more than 1/4 speed means you will be abandoned by the fleet, and the finnal result is easy to perceive .

I thought that ship in Jutland is 'lion' ( I am not quit sure because the book I read was in chinese) The greatest contribution of that officer is neither saving the furture admiral nor saving the ship, he gave the British engineer a chance to reexaming the ship to find the turret design defect in virtually all British ships.

Dreadnought in WW1's defination should be thouse ship with steam turbine engine , 11 to 13.5 inch main armament and about 20000t+, 11 to 12 inch turret armor , 20knot+```````.

the different between a Dreadnought and a battle cruiser is that the battle cruiser has the fire power of a Dreadnought but only employs a 6 inch turret armor, and a lot lighter than battle ship.
A battle cruiser is at least 4 knot faster than his relevant battleship.

A battle cruiser's mission is not armada armageddon, but to use his speed to catch and destroy enemy scout ship and raider group to protect the traffic and the interests of Great britain in the far east. However, neither the admiral of the britain nor the commander of German navy managed to resist the temptation to take these extra fire power into the battle of Jutland.

In WW2, the battle ship could manage a speed over 30 knots, therefore the concept of battle cruisers become meaningless.

BTW, that officer is gunnery officer like someone said above, not turret officer.

 

[Tasman]

BTW, that officer is gunnery officer like someone said above, not turret officer.

Actually you were correct. Major Harvey was the turret commander, not the ship's overall gunnery officer. He lost both legs before giving the order to lock the magazine doors shut and also ordering the flooding of the magazine. Several of the gunnery crew were found dead, with their hands still clutching the magazine door handles! The ship was very close to being lost.

In WW1 it was necessary to greatly increase the length of battlecruisers to achieve high speeds and to compensate for the weight of the extra engines and larger hull the armoured protection had to be sacrificed. Dreadnoughts generally had a speed of around 21 - 23 knots but were heavily armoured whilst battlecruisers were capable if 26 - 31 knots but were comparatively lightly protected. The dreadnoughts also had a weakness in their armour as they were designed to fight at ranges where most incoming shells would be hitting from a low trajectory. By Jutland improved fire control meant that ships were engaged at ranges in excess of 20 000 yards and the WW1 designs that survived until WW2 were inadequately protected against long range plunging fire. Hood was actually comparatively well protected for a battlecruiser (as good as the Queen Elizabeth class dreadnoughts) but her weak deck protection meant that shells fired from long range by Bismark were able to penetrate her deck armour. It was planned to reconstruct Hood to improve her deck armour but this was never carried out.

By WW2 improvements in boiler and engine design meant that machinery was lighter and the modern battleships were able to combine dreadnought protection (including better deck armour) with battlecruiser speed so the two types merged as the fast battleship.

Tas

 

[davros]

Yeah the Hood was well protected for a Battlecruiser some considered here a fast battleship, If she had her rebuild she may well have survived that hit, I dont normally use the term dreadnought type anyway.

 

[ever4244]

Actually you were correct. Major Harvey was the turret commander, not the ship's overall gunnery officer. He lost both legs before giving the order to lock the magazine doors shut and also ordering the flooding of the magazine. Several of the gunnery crew were found dead, with their hands still clutching the magazine door handles! The ship was very close to being lost.

In WW1 it was necessary to greatly increase the length of battlecruisers to achieve high speeds and to compensate for the weight of the extra engines and larger hull the armoured protection had to be sacrificed. Dreadnoughts generally had a speed of around 21 - 23 knots but were heavily armoured whilst battlecruisers were capable if 26 - 31 knots but were comparatively lightly protected. The dreadnoughts also had a weakness in their armour as they were designed to fight at ranges where most incoming shells would be hitting from a low trajectory. By Jutland improved fire control meant that ships were engaged at ranges in excess of 30 000 yards and the WW1 designs that survived until WW2 were inadequately protected against long range plunging fire. Hood was actually comparatively well protected for a battlecruiser (as good as the Queen Elizabeth class dreadnoughts) but her weak deck protection meant that shells fired from long range by Bismark were able to penetrate her deck armour. It was planned to reconstruct Hood to improve her deck armour but this was never carried out.

By WW2 improvements in boiler and engine design meant that machinery was lighter and the modern battleships were able to combine dreadnought protection (including better deck armour) with battlecruiser speed so the two types merged as the fast battleship.

Tas

Thank you for correction.

Add some supplyment:

Post WW1, there is a different idea to gain protection through concentrated defence.

In this concept, insteading of increasing the thichness of overall heaviness of armor belt and deck, it proposes to concentrate all vital equipment which includes turret, magzine,engine into the center part of the ship. In this case, this vital equipment can confined into a heavy armor box.

To realize this concept, British has build a ship whose all three heavy turret piled togeter in the middle-front part of the ship to form the top armor wall of the box, and a thick and short amour belt to shield the magzine and engine room below the turret.

Altough these ship was labeled as uncontrolable stupid and ugly by the captains, it proved to be very robust and tough in WW2.

 

[merocaine]

While not classed a 'Dreadnought', Imperial Japan's WW2 Yamato remains the
largest Battleship ever built at about 73,000 ton displacement. She exploded
off the coast of Japan on April 6th 1945. The plume could be seen from the
southern most Islands of Japan some 130 miles away.

Although she was hit multiple times and her death was a slow sinking until
fires reached the main magazines, it was a horrific explosion. Some great
pics on the link below:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/s...z/yamato-n.htm

Good Link, What an absolute sheer waste though, all for nothing, I'm sure there were a lot of men on those ships who were disgusted at the sheer ridiculousness of there role....

 

[Gryphon]

Approximately 2500 dead on the Yamato, with 300 survivors on basically a
naval Kamikaze attack - sad.

The Yamato's battle record was one of impotence, where the Japanese Navy
never really stood toe to toe with American Battleships. The only action I
can think of that she fired at ships was the Battle of Leyte Gulf where as
part of the Japanese Center Force engaged the small American fleet
supporting MacArthur's landing operations. The Yamato displaced more than
the entire opposing American fleet.

The Yamato did fire and get some hits, but the Center Force was defeated
and ran for home. It was one of the boldest victories in the history of the
US Navy, and the most humbling defeats for the Japanese.

The history channel has a great analysis of the battle:

The Death of the Japanese Navy

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/Conflict/programme_3379.php

 

[Tasman]

Approximately 2500 dead on the Yamato, with 300 survivors on basically a
naval Kamikaze attack - sad.

The Yamato's battle record was one of impotence, where the Japanese Navy
never really stood toe to toe with American Battleships. The only action I
can think of that she fired at ships was the Battle of Leyte Gulf where as
part of the Japanese Center Force engaged the small American fleet
supporting MacArthur's landing operations. The Yamato displaced more than
the entire opposing American fleet.

The Yamato did fire and get some hits, but the Center Force was defeated
and ran for home. It was one of the boldest victories in the history of the
US Navy, and the most humbling defeats for the Japanese.

The history channel has a great analysis of the battle:

The Death of the Japanese Navy

http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/Conflict/programme_3379.php

Thanks for the link.

Tas

 

[merocaine]

Just a quick couple of questions, Are there any Battleships being built anymore? by that I mean Ships whose Primary purpose is to seek out and sink enemy fleets.
I know the Soviets built some cruisers that bristled with anti air and shipping missiles, would they be considered modern Battleships?
May seem like an uninformed question but is there still a role for Battleships in a fleet action?

 

[Lostfleet]

Thank you guys for the link and replies, really informative,

Merocaine, I guess the only possible role for an old style battleship would be an amphibious landing support mission, 16" guns can truly do some damage ( some might argue that there is no need for that with Close Air Support)

Kirov and Slava class can be identified solely as anti-surface ships ( more anti-carrier ships)

of course all other ships carrying SSMs like Harpoon, Tomahawk and Exocet are formidable anti-ship platforms.

 

[Morrigan]

Just a quick couple of questions, Are there any Battleships being built anymore? by that I mean Ships whose Primary purpose is to seek out and sink enemy fleets.
I know the Soviets built some cruisers that bristled with anti air and shipping missiles, would they be considered modern Battleships?
May seem like an uninformed question but is there still a role for Battleships in a fleet action?

I'm afraid not, unless some well informed person makes me look stupid, the last of the battleships have been struck from the register. In an era of expenditures on Harpoon, Cruise Missiles, Nuclear Submarines et al, I think it's unlikely the battleship proper will ever be revived. Saying that, I thought it was quite astute that the Americans retained the 4 Iowa class battleships in the reserve. They proved they were still very useful naval artillery in Desert Storm, and lets face it if they'd ever managed to get in a surface combat they'd have presented a headache. It'd take quite a few SSMs to knock one of those out. I think I'm right in remembering there was a lot of flak at the decision to retire them. I'll see if I can find a link.

Ok...apologies for this (quoting wikipedia) but it actually has a very good article on the subject. I don't have enough posts to link directly yet, but it's under the articles Iowa class battleship, reactivation potential.

In 2007, a thesis report submitted to the Joint Forces Staff College/Joint Advanced Warfighting School by Shawn A. Welch, a Colonel in the Army National Guard's Corps of Engineers analyzed the current capacity for naval gunfire support (NGS) and made several conclusion based on the progress made since the retirement of the last two Iowa-class battleships. In particular, Welch estimates that the full force of DD(X) destoyers needed to replace the decommissioned Iowas will not arrive until 2020-2025 at the earliest, and alleges that the U.S. Navy has not accurately assessed the capabilities of its large caliber gun ships since 1990. The report alleges that the Navy has consistantly scaled back or outright cancelled programs intended to replace naval gunfire support capacity...

Seems like the USN just isn't big on naval artillery any more.

 

[davros]

I read somewhere that the thick armored belts of a battleship would give brilliant protection against cruise missiles like the harpoon as there not designed to go through armored belts.

 

[Lostfleet]

I think current torpedos are the best weapon against the Iowas,

On the other hand laser guided bombs could be more accurate if you want to hit ammunition directly. ( Of course if an aircraft can penetrate the fleet air defence to get close enough to the ship)