I agree that a navalised A109 would be useful for operations of the the OPV. The only disadvantage I see is the lack of a surface search radar. Even if we did buy navalised A109 is still doesn't get around the whole problem that the Seasprite internationally is an orphan operated by NZ, Egypt and Poland. Dump the upgrade and buy the new version of Lynx or navalised NH90
Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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I believe that a surface search radar is an option for the A109, maybe not as powerful as the one on the Sprite but useful none the less. Indeed the NH90 would be the prefered option for the ANZACS and the MRV, however the A109could be a way off keeping the costs down for the maritime helicopter fleet without departing from essentially a 2 type helicopter fleet for the NZDF, replacing the 5 Sprites one for one (or maybe more) with NH90's would be extremely expensive.
Yes - more NH-90 would indeed be extremely expensive and frankly I think you can quite categorically count out NH-90's replacing the Sprites on cost alone. We may well see A(W)109's doing the majority of OPV embarkation - under the guise of flight-deck training (& why not!?!). They're perfect for this role but we do need a few more!!!
Mind you, at present only the Canterbury is at sea so goes to show that there will be plenty of times Sprites will be available (land-based taskings aside), especially as OPV deployments are likely to be in the order of weeks rather than months.
I like the Sprites but yes I agree we are in a rather precarious situation - if the spares issue can be sorted then don't expect to, see any change. Other obvious choice is the Super-Lynx, but don't expect any such move for 10+ years (if at all).
My worry is that they'll replace the Sprites with a fleet of A(W)109's, consequently dumbing down our combat capability even further.
Its been a few years, but as I recall, the 9 NH-90s New Zealand purchased costs almost twice as much as the 5 SeaSprites apiece. If Kamen can get their spare parts process fixed, I would keep the SeaSprites. On the other hand, if those two SeaSprites are never fixed, and Kamen can't ship the spare parts in a timely manner, I might look elsewhere for newer helicopters. Keep in mind New Zealand operated the Wasps for a long time, and the Hueys even longer. Back during the early 1980s, when New Zealand acquired two used Leander class frigates from the United Kingdom, the British sent two Wasps with the frigates which I am sure helped considerably their spare parts situation.
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I think she has earned her status as a sea lift ship, the question remains whether the Canterbury will be able to patrol the rough Southern Ocean as planned. The upcoming inquiry should settle this question. I believe water tight doors covering the alcoves will answer the RHIBs location issue, whether a bit more ballast will settle the propeller submergence or emergence issue I don't know. We will have to wait for the inquiry.
Yes, the video slide show showed much of her insides which haven't been seen before. Looks to me like there is plenty of room in the vehicle deck, fight deck, and berthing areas. Appears soldiers should reach their destination well fed and in great shape.
Yes, the video slide show showed much of her insides which haven't been seen before. Looks to me like there is plenty of room in the vehicle deck, fight deck, and berthing areas. Appears soldiers should reach their destination well fed and in great shape.
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Music: Iron Maiden "Blood Brothers"
Quite an appropiate choice.
Canterbury seems to be on the move - from the NZDEF Site:
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/20080331-nphhtd.htm
Raoul Island Supply Trip, and then off to New Caledonia for more exercises
Meantime Te Mana is off to the Gulf again:
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/20080402-nrfpgd.htm
Quite an appropiate choice.
Canterbury seems to be on the move - from the NZDEF Site:
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/20080331-nphhtd.htm
Raoul Island Supply Trip, and then off to New Caledonia for more exercises
Meantime Te Mana is off to the Gulf again:
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/media-releases/20080402-nrfpgd.htm
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Frigate Te Mana leaves on 5 month deployment to the Persian Gulf including "diplomatic port calls to countries such as Australia, Singapore, India and Myanmar". Huh, Myanmar???? Isn't that a bit like visiting North Korea?
Anyway will be patrolling near the Iranian coast. Hopefully the Seasprite will be fully armed with door mounted M60 MG and Mavericks covering any boarding parties if they have to venture near their maritime boundaries. Makes you think though that Mavericks are overkill for FIAC, maybe some type of automatic/rotatable 25mm cannon mounted on each pylon would be more appropriate???
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Kiwis to patrol for pirates and slave traders
HMNZS Te Mana deploys for the Persian Gulf
KIM RUSCOE - The Dominion Post | Tuesday, 08 April 2008
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4468525a6479.html
Navy sailors lined the decks of the Te Mana, their backs straight and proud as they gathered in their formal "number ones" to farewell their loved ones.
But as the frigate inched away from the wharf at Devonport Naval base yesterday, the emotional pull was inescapable, brave faces crumpling and the tears welling.
A comforting hand reached out to 21-year-old Michelle Hawk, surreptitiously stroking her back, lending her strength as she presented a stoic face to those waving from shore.
"Whew, that was hard," said the former Wellington Girls College student.
"I could see my sister crying on the wharf.
"It really hits you when the ship pulls away."
But the tears were soon wiped away and the excitement of being sent into active duty flooded in.
The Te Mana, her Sea Sprite helicopter and 175 crew have been deployed to the Persian Gulf where they will spend three months patrolling the waters for pirates, illegal gun runners and slave traders operating off the Iranian coast.
They will also perform humanitarian visits, taking supplies to ships that request it.
"We're actually going somewhere to do our job," Ms Hawk said.
"This is the trip everyone wanted to go on, so I'm pretty lucky."
As one of the official boarding party, Ms Hawk will be on the frontline.
"Dad's pretty proud, Mum's a bit concerned," she said.
"This is active duty, we'll come back with a couple of medals."
For Trentham-based Army Major Lisa Ferris - a Defence Forces lawyer - it will be her job to advise the captain on which ships they can legally board under the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea.
"I'm pretty much in the captain's pocket," she said.
Never having been at sea before, Ms Ferris is in for an adventure.
Having completed her Maritime disaster training - learning how to put out fires and control floods - she sent her SPCA-mixed breed dog to live with her family on a Gisborne farm, swapped her Army "khaki" for a pair of Navy overalls and downed a couple of sea sickness tablets.
"Compared to the Army, this is pretty good," she said.
"I don't have to dig a hole in the ground for my bed . . . we get three cooked meals a day, hot showers, a bed to sleep in - it's heaven."
Captained by Commander Blair Gerristen, the Te Mana will be away for five months and, as well as its three-month patrol duty in the Persian Gulf, will carry out diplomatic port calls to countries such as Australia, Singapore, India and Myanmar.
This is the Navy's third deployment to the Persian Gulf, with previous visits in 2003 and 2004.
More than 400 Defence Force personnel are deployed on 15 operations, United Nations missions and defence exercises around the world.
Anyway will be patrolling near the Iranian coast. Hopefully the Seasprite will be fully armed with door mounted M60 MG and Mavericks covering any boarding parties if they have to venture near their maritime boundaries. Makes you think though that Mavericks are overkill for FIAC, maybe some type of automatic/rotatable 25mm cannon mounted on each pylon would be more appropriate???
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Kiwis to patrol for pirates and slave traders
HMNZS Te Mana deploys for the Persian Gulf
KIM RUSCOE - The Dominion Post | Tuesday, 08 April 2008
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4468525a6479.html
Navy sailors lined the decks of the Te Mana, their backs straight and proud as they gathered in their formal "number ones" to farewell their loved ones.
But as the frigate inched away from the wharf at Devonport Naval base yesterday, the emotional pull was inescapable, brave faces crumpling and the tears welling.
A comforting hand reached out to 21-year-old Michelle Hawk, surreptitiously stroking her back, lending her strength as she presented a stoic face to those waving from shore.
"Whew, that was hard," said the former Wellington Girls College student.
"I could see my sister crying on the wharf.
"It really hits you when the ship pulls away."
But the tears were soon wiped away and the excitement of being sent into active duty flooded in.
The Te Mana, her Sea Sprite helicopter and 175 crew have been deployed to the Persian Gulf where they will spend three months patrolling the waters for pirates, illegal gun runners and slave traders operating off the Iranian coast.
They will also perform humanitarian visits, taking supplies to ships that request it.
"We're actually going somewhere to do our job," Ms Hawk said.
"This is the trip everyone wanted to go on, so I'm pretty lucky."
As one of the official boarding party, Ms Hawk will be on the frontline.
"Dad's pretty proud, Mum's a bit concerned," she said.
"This is active duty, we'll come back with a couple of medals."
For Trentham-based Army Major Lisa Ferris - a Defence Forces lawyer - it will be her job to advise the captain on which ships they can legally board under the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea.
"I'm pretty much in the captain's pocket," she said.
Never having been at sea before, Ms Ferris is in for an adventure.
Having completed her Maritime disaster training - learning how to put out fires and control floods - she sent her SPCA-mixed breed dog to live with her family on a Gisborne farm, swapped her Army "khaki" for a pair of Navy overalls and downed a couple of sea sickness tablets.
"Compared to the Army, this is pretty good," she said.
"I don't have to dig a hole in the ground for my bed . . . we get three cooked meals a day, hot showers, a bed to sleep in - it's heaven."
Captained by Commander Blair Gerristen, the Te Mana will be away for five months and, as well as its three-month patrol duty in the Persian Gulf, will carry out diplomatic port calls to countries such as Australia, Singapore, India and Myanmar.
This is the Navy's third deployment to the Persian Gulf, with previous visits in 2003 and 2004.
More than 400 Defence Force personnel are deployed on 15 operations, United Nations missions and defence exercises around the world.
Exercise Croix Du Sud 2008 (courtesy ADF)
Can't expect RNZN website to give such good updates
Shows various images including one good one of HMNZS Canterbury.
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2008/Apr/20080407b/index.htm
Still bugs me thought that there's no FIAC protection (esp. Mini-Typhoon & TopLite) for the bow - and where are those bridge-top .5 cal HMG's that were supposed to be fitted?
This waffle about her not going into high threat situations is crazy - she doesn't need to be in a high-threat area to need her own FIAC protection (as does Endeavour).
Can't expect RNZN website to give such good updates
Shows various images including one good one of HMNZS Canterbury.
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2008/Apr/20080407b/index.htm
Still bugs me thought that there's no FIAC protection (esp. Mini-Typhoon & TopLite) for the bow - and where are those bridge-top .5 cal HMG's that were supposed to be fitted?
This waffle about her not going into high threat situations is crazy - she doesn't need to be in a high-threat area to need her own FIAC protection (as does Endeavour).
It seems normal practice, at least in the RAN and RNZN, for 0.5" HMGs to be unshipped and stowed when not immediately required for training, exercises or actual threat. However, although they could also be fitted rapidly, I would have expected that the mounts would be in place.
I would like to see the RNZN acquire a small pool of Mini Typhoons and at least fit Cantebury 'for but not' with a pair of them so that they could be shipped whenever required.
Tas
Ooops...I meant mini-typhoon etc for stern, not the bow! The bows covered with the BushMaster. Actually this exercise is precisely where I would expect to see the HMG's in place - that is after-all the whole point of exercising!
Yep, totally agree - a pool of them would be a great idea.
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
It could happen at some point. As we all know NZ tends to play it safe e.g. RAN experiences in the Gulf see mini-typhoons fitted to their ANZAC's, RNZN then gets the approval to do the same a couple of years later etc. Tasman and co talk about the mini's being fitted-for to their sealift vessels in the RAN forum. Perhaps once the Canterbury starts venturing further westwards from the Australian east coast and New Calendonia into SE Asia or Timor or further afield for exercises (or something more serious) then perhaps there could be a better justification. Agree that the Endeavour needs better self-protection, this ship has travelled all throughout Asia and into the Indian Ocean and Gulf supporting RNZN and RAN operations. It's a vital asset, to lose it or have it damaged and out of service would be a severe blow, replacements don't grow on trees or can be bought or borrowed just like that, as we all know!
Simple gun safety. I was taught not to fire a gun into the air, you never know where the bullet will fall. In Texas, livestock or a beloved horse could be hit. Even at sea, you could kill or wound someone. If you are going to shoot in the air, its best to use a shotgun.
Just because you are in the military doesn't change the rules, unless you are being fired upon by the enemy's aircraft or shooting at targets. No need to bring down a helicopter during an exercise.
Hey I don't disagree about the dangers - I'm acutely aware of 'travel' when out hunting, but I'm a little perplexed about what you think I was suggesting!?! It's common in naval exercises to have an HMG loaded with blanks actually pointed & fired at incoming aircraft! No-one suggested shooting live rounds!
I'm sure you're aware in naval exercises it is standard to throw a range of threat scenarios at the crews and in an amphibious / littoral exercise one of the more recognised threats is FIAC. I'd like to see the Canterbury training for this scenario. Granted, I believe the exercise was a non-combative evac exercise so maybe it's a little 'early' in the vessels career to worry about FIAC threat suppression!?!:unknown
Who knows, they may have done done so on another day during this exercise. It isn't as though they have to have the machine guns ready all the time. How long does it take to set the machine guns up? I was under the impression within a few minutes. Just because we didn't see a picture doesn't mean it did or didn't happen.
Once Canterbury works out it's warranty period, I agree that fitting mini typhoons should happen at some point, but I think that the fitting of chaff launchers, left over from Canterbury & Wellington is more likely in the short term.
Wouldn't be a bad idea - but given that those 2 old girls have been gone 3+ years & that there's never been any 'official' suggeston that this is planned (nor is it in LTDP etc etc) - I'm fairly sceptical it's planned.
On another note - has anyone noticed Te Mana is now sporting a 3rd satellite (?) dome atop the hangar? It's significantly larger than the previous 2 (both of which remain) which I understand are SatNav & SatTV domes. Anyone know what this is for? Not aware the Te Kaha has it yet, but it's in maintenance period about now so I'd expect to see it emerge with same.