Russian Navy Head Calls for 5-6 Aircraft Carriers

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Ozzy Blizzard

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Sea Toby/others: There are other means of acquiring target data; satellites, submarines, and surveillance helicopters/aircraft. Many modern attack subs carrier underwater-to-surface missiles and have satellite/aircraft communications. I'm not talking about a third-world country attacking a carrier group but a country with equal technology. Additionally, there are some missiles that don't have to hit the target but just get close enough to release a homming torpodeo. There is no weapon system made that cannot be defeated.
You dont just have to detect the carrier, you have to fix its location in real time. That aint easy. Currently orbital based ISR assets like RORSAT's can fix a CBG's location, but thats not good enough for weapons cueing. The submarine or aircraft still has to use a radar/sonar/visual track for a weapons shot. The question isnt wether a CBG is detectable but how practicle 500nm ranged SSM's are considering that the only way targeting quality track data is achieveble is to have a platfrom in line of sight to the target and transmit the data back. That reduces the usefullness considerably when faceing the USN.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
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The question isnt wether a CBG is detectable but how practicle 500nm ranged SSM's are considering that the only way targeting quality track data is achieveble is to have a platfrom in line of sight to the target and transmit the data back.
One approach is what was used in the P700 Granat / SS-N-19 Shipwreck.

Initial target location (launch vector data) is provided via SATCOM to the launching platform by satellites and recon aircraft. These also keep providing mid-course guidance to the missiles.
The missiles are salvo-launched, and on terminal approach communicate target data to each other. As i understand it, not all missiles would use their active seekers, instead one (or a couple) take over a "targeting" role, and provide info on the target (radar, radar-reception, IR) to the entire salvo of missiles. If the "targeter" is shot down, another missile would take over its role.
Of course these missiles would still be very vulnerable to SAMs due to their ballistic terminal approach path.

A modern approach could see a "pack" of long-range seaskimmers, of which a few would rise to higher levels occasionally during approach and engage in a similar targeting role, while the rest of the pack would autonomously choose somewhat different approach vectors based on the received target data until the target is within the missile's own terminal range.

Additionally, there are some missiles that don't have to hit the target but just get close enough to release a homming torpodeo.
Except these a) are usually lightweight torpedoes and b) would tell the target the exact approach vector in order to take the usual countermeasures (evasive maneuvers, stealthing, decoys, active systems).
 

Salty Dog

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Short ranged ballistic missiles? You would risk an all out nuclear war with a short ranged ballistic missile? How do you target the carrier over the horizon? By the time the missile got there the carrier would have moved somewhere at 30 knots. And the carrier would still have its electronic warfare suite along with its chaff launchers. Am I missing something here?

Everyone talks of long distance cruise missiles, they are great at hitting stationary targets. Unfortunately, carriers aren't stationary. The question remains, how do you target something you don't see over the horizon?
OTH target location is had with no mystery.

Technology is already employed for OTH cruise missiles to arrive in the target area and search. Even if they run, it's tough to hide.

source: Globalsecurity.org

Tactical Tomahawk adds the capability to reprogram the missile while in-flight to strike any of 15 preprogrammed alternate targets or redirect the missile to any Global Positioning System (GPS) target coordinates. It also is able to loiter over a target area for some hours, and with its on-board TV camera, would allow the warfighting commanders to assess battle damage of the target, and, if necessary redirect the missile to any other target. Tactical Tomahawk permits mission planning aboard cruisers, destroyers and attack submarines for quick reaction GPS missions. The Tactical Tomahawk underwent a successful functional ground test (FGT) in mid-2002 at IHDIV's Rocket Motor Test Facility. This test served as a risk mitigation event prior to the first Tactical Tomahawk flight test. The successful completion of this test was a major milestone in the development of this new Tomahawk variant.

The tactical Tomahawk was accepted by the fleet on 29 September 2004. The new capabilities of the Tactical Tomahawk carries a two-way satellite link that allows operators to reprogram the missile in flight. It also delivers messages of its health and accuracy back to operators and can transmit limited battle damage imagery. The system has enhanced anti-jam global positioning system receivers and can be launched from surface ships or submarines while carrying a 1,000-pound warhead.
 

Feanor

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In my mind the best way of dealing with carrier groups was nuking them. A multi-gigaton torpedo perhaps or even a cruise missile launched from a missile carrier (the classical Soviet way would work, 2-3 regiments of Backfire's, with a Blackjack or Bear to launch several nuclear missiles).
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
In my mind the best way of dealing with carrier groups was nuking them. A multi-gigaton torpedo perhaps or even a cruise missile launched from a missile carrier (the classical Soviet way would work, 2-3 regiments of Backfire's, with a Blackjack or Bear to launch several nuclear missiles).
That was the soviets answer too. Its probably the most effective way to deal with a technologicaly superior CBG, either submerged detonation or atmospheric saturation attack, a tactical nuke is definatly the most effective single answer. Allthough in todays era of limited warfare a nuke is not a realistic possibility.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
U.S. submarines are highly survivable, but in this case a “mission-kill” damaged submarine may be almost as good to adversary war planners as a destroyed submarine. Moreover, as a recent article in the Spring 2006 issue of UNDERSEA WARFARE Magazine notes, “submarine… cannot use all the mine-clearing tools available to surface ships… pre-cursor sweeping before transiting a minefield is generally not an option…”61 [“Underwater Stealth: Mine Countermeasures’ Ace in the Hole” UNDERSEA WARFARE, Spring 2006, pg. 12].
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_33/china.html


Without SSNs guarding a CTF, enemy subs will have easier time to get into firing positions- this will mission kill it!
As for RFN, it's chief says "we need 5-6 carriers" but hopes to get about 2-3 at best. Unless they jointly build them with the PRC I don't think it's possible to get all of them in less than 15-20 years. They can't even finish ex-Gorshkov for the IN on time, on budget!
 

Jon K

New Member
Without SSNs guarding a CTF, enemy subs will have easier time to get into firing positions- this will mission kill it! As for RFN, it's chief says "we need 5-6 carriers" but hopes to get about 2-3 at best.
Depends on what is called a carrier, but considering size of Russian economy I'd say two carriers are a pipedream. If Russian Navy follows the carrier route it's the CV(F) story but in even worse dimensions. 2-3 LHA's might be realistic and actually useful ships.
 

Actual

Banned Member
Depends on what is called a carrier, but considering size of Russian economy I'd say two carriers are a pipedream. If Russian Navy follows the carrier route it's the CV(F) story but in even worse dimensions. 2-3 LHA's might be realistic and actually useful ships.
You only have to look at the Chinese PLAN's long-drawn out problems in trying to achieve a CV capability, to see the issues and demands such projects involve. Even at the height of Gorshkov's Soviet Navy, CV development was hindered for numerous reasons; not least techinical and economic shortcomings.

I would agree that less-grandois LHA-class surface units may be a more realistic option for the Russian Navy in the forseeable future.
 

Feanor

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Well keep in mind the recent Russian exercises in the atlantic. They involved a light carrier, the Kuznetsov, and support ships. It looked like practice at operating a CVBG to me. Another set of similar exercises is planned this year.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Yes, they are thinking of small CVs for VSTOL fiighters- those are going to be cheaper and faster to build & operate. But even then, noone knows how long it will take to build 5-6 of them! By the time they are in service, the new class may not be ideal for their maritime policy/doctrine, especially if Russia breaks up farther and looses more of her coastline.
 

StingrayOZ

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Instead of supersized American style carriers I could see them running smaller carriers.

<40,000t Either as helo carrier (LHA/LHD) or as STOBAR or even UAV's.

The russians have plenty of long range missiles and aircraft. Something more like a wasp sized ship (maybe less beam and more length), but with a skijump. Can be tasked with operating 4-8 smaller fighter/strike aircraft. But primary job would be moving and landing troops and operating attack and heavy helicopters.

Nuking carriers would be a pretty feasable idea, given the limited number of civilian casualties and enviromental damage. While quite likely to attract heavy retailation, depending on the conflict may not result in all out MAD.

Even a(or more likely multiple) subsurface explosion(s) would damage and disable any nearby submarines enough that the CSG would be vunerable to underwater attacks.

Still not a sensible option, but if your already at war with the US and losing it make make sense to certain political fringes.
 

Feanor

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There is no real chance that Russia will break up further at this point. The situation has stabilized in that sense. Carriers operating 4-8 aircraft are not feasible, but carriers operating 12-18 fighter jets, and a few helicopters are most likely to be chosen.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, they are thinking of small CVs for VSTOL fiighters- those are going to be cheaper and faster to build & operate. But even then, noone knows how long it will take to build 5-6 of them! By the time they are in service, the new class may not be ideal for their maritime policy/doctrine, especially if Russia breaks up farther and looses more of her coastline.
I doubt that. What STOVL fighter are they planning to operate from these carriers? The Yak-141 was cancelled 17 years ago. There are no STOVL fighters currently in production, & the only one under development is the F-35B.

What coastal areas of Russia might secede? I can't think of any. All the non-Russian-inhabited coastal regions (apart from Siberian & Arctic indigenous peoples, who are few in number & know they have no choice but to stay part of Russia) have already seceded. There's more chance of parts of other ex-Soviet republics seceding & giving Russia access to their coastline than Russia losing more coastline.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
The Yak-141 was cancelled, but can be resurrected in a new form. Also, if modified Kiev class (ex-Gorshkov) can handle MiG-29Ks, IMO, a few design changes all that is needed to start building them again!
The Russian Far East on the Pacific & Arctic side is being Cinisized, just like Tibet, and one day may secede. The Kaliningrad enclave in the Baltic may do likewise. On the Black Sea, they may gain from Ukraine or loose in the N. Caucasus, but I doubt that even under the best of conditions any CVs/LHAs could be effectively based there- the treaty prohibits it, unless they call them "aviation cruisers" as in the Soviet era.
 

Feanor

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The Russian Far East is unlikely to secede within the forseeable future. Russia is currently experiencing a small baby boom, and the population decline is set to reverse itself. Kaliningrad has not made any gestures in that direction either. The North Caucus has stabilized and in fact Russia stands to gain there, should it accept Abkhazian and S. Ossetian petitions for annexation.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Russian admiral reaffirms aircraft carrier aspirations

Russian admiral reaffirms aircraft carrier aspirations*
The commander-in-chief of the Russian Federation Navy has restated the service's long-term aspiration to build a force of five or six aircraft carrier strike groups. Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky said a naval strategy was being drawn up that envisaged the creation of the new maritime aviation capability by 2050-60
*Subscriber Link

Well its seem they are serious about it with a realistic timeframe as well.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Yak-141 was cancelled, but can be resurrected in a new form. Also, if modified Kiev class (ex-Gorshkov) can handle MiG-29Ks, IMO, a few design changes all that is needed to start building them again!....
Please let us confine ourselves to reality, not fantasies. The Yak-141 can be revived in a modernised form, but there is no evidence whatsoever that it will be. Russian hopes for future aircraft carriers appear to be based entirely on CTOL designs.

And what does the MiG-29K have to do with STOVL fighters? It's a CTOL aircraft.

Your ideas on likely secession of Russian regions appear to be based on your usual reasoning. You pick one or two factors & extrapolate them, ignoring all the feedback this will generate, & ignoring other factors which in reality have equal or greater weight. You seem to think of the world as if it was a fantasy role-playing game. I'm afraid it's far more complicated than that.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Russian admiral reaffirms aircraft carrier aspirations*
The commander-in-chief of the Russian Federation Navy has restated the service's long-term aspiration to build a force of five or six aircraft carrier strike groups. Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky said a naval strategy was being drawn up that envisaged the creation of the new maritime aviation capability by 2050-60
*Subscriber Link

Well its seem they are serious about it with a realistic timeframe as well.
Agreed, that's a feasible timeframe. But it's also such a long timeframe that it's too long to be predictable. Well, we'll see - if we live long enough.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
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The Yak-141 was cancelled, but can be resurrected in a new form. Also, if modified Kiev class (ex-Gorshkov) can handle MiG-29Ks, IMO, a few design changes all that is needed to start building them again!
If Russia is genuinely serious with bringing back carrier VSTOL they would already be implementing new VSTOL aircraft projects. Even if just in the concept stage (like the PAK-FA/T-50). I wonder why Russia has not yet launched their own JSFski program complete with "A", "B", and "C" variants.

The cruiser-carrier warship is a creature of the past. Not sure why you did not suggest building more Kusnetsovs.
 

flyer19999

New Member
Russian Far East

Russia is a vast country covering 12 time zones and almost twice the size of the U.S. Russia is not likely to let the Far East go because there are large anounts of natural resources there. Most of these resources have not been touched and they most be protected. With an energy and materials starved world seeking to expand Russia needs to develop new long-range air defense fifth-generation aircraft, small/fast coastal defense vessels and long-range air defense missiles,
 
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