Will latest F-35 problems push Norway towards a European solution?

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AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The weapon you are looking for is the Boeing Joint Dual Role Air Dominance Missile (JDRADM). This will be a replacement for AMRAAM, SDB and other weapons with dial a range and dial a target (air or ground) capabilities.

As for long range this is not that hard to acheive courtesy of rocket motors. USAF could have a 300-1,000km air to air weapons within weeks if they wanted to. The problem is that even with a Mach 4+ missile the target is not going to be where it was when you launched it at ranges well over 100-200km. Long range missile interception is all about the size of the missile's active seeker and mid course updates not rocket motors.
 

Falstaff

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Too late... interesting move though.

defense-aerospace.com said:
Boeing Offers to Deliver Jet Fighters to Norway


(Source: Norway Post; issued March 4, 2008)



The US aircraft manufacturer Boeing plans to join the race to deliver new jet fighters to the Norwegian Air Force, and has already had meetings with the Norwegian authorities, according to NRK [Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation].

The world's largest aircraft manufacturer now sees the opportunity to sell jet fighters to countries that are by now tired of delays and increasing costs of the Joint Strike Fighter, the magazine Ingenioeren writes.

However, information director for the Norwegian fighter project, Major Jarle Ramskjaer, is quoted as saying that Boeing is entering the race too late.

-ends-
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
According to Mary Ann Brett, seniormanager, International Communications, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, it is not a formal submission. The Norwegians has been made aware of the alternatives on the market. Boeing has no plans to approach Denmark. The proposed version is Block III.

Boeing was not willing to elaborate on its "6th Gen" fighter.

From http://ing.dk/artikel/86139 (in Danish).
 

Falstaff

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Seems like Boeing might not be so desperate after alll... Interesting thought that the Brits might be forced to change, although I don't believe a second this will happen. But 27 moths over schedule and 38 billion $ over budget? Man, they're human after all! :D

DefenseNews reports:
Navy Struggles With 'Fighter Gap'
May Buy More F/A-18s, Delay F-35 Purchase
By vago muradian
Published: 7 April 2008 Print | Email

The U.S. Navy is mulling proposals to bridge a "strike fighter gap" next decade by buying more F/A-18 E/F fighters or delaying the naval version of F-35 Lightning II, and that's worrying other Joint Strike Fighter customers.



The U.S. Navy may buy additional F/A-18s and possibly delay Joint Strike Fighters, above. (U.S. Navy) "The Navy is definitely looking at another buy of F-18s and both accelerating or slowing down F-35, and we have run some numbers to help them answer their questions," said Air Force Maj. Gen. C.R. Davis, the F-35 program executive officer. "Any time there is a discussion of a service or country pulling out airplanes from the program, the other service leaderships get very concerned. But we have told the Navy that buying them sooner at greater rates gives you a lower cost and more capability on your decks than any other buying profile."

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Naval Warfare
Navy leaders say they're fully committed to the JSF, but are facing a "strike fighter gap" between 2016 and 2025 as F/A-18 jets are retired but before the JSFs come on line, Adm. Gary Roughead, the chief of naval operations, told lawmakers.

To fill the gap, the Navy is looking at options that include upgrading some older planes to delay their retirements, buying from 50 to 282 more F-18s, and either speeding or delaying JSF.

Navy leaders worry that upgrading older F-18s may not make financial sense. Yet buying more JSFs earlier may be tough, because initial batches of the more capable Lockheed Martin jet will cost more than Boeing's F-18.

If the Navy eliminates the 25 carrier versions that it plans to buy each year for a decade, that "will increase the cost of the other planes that are being bought in those years," Davis said. "If you take hundreds of airplanes out of the program, of course the unit prices go up."

Moreover, a recent Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that the roughly $1 trillion program is more than $38 billion over budget and could be 27 months behind schedule.

Davis rejects the GAO's findings, and said the program is achieving its milestones.

The Navy pushed back vigorously on any suggestion that its support of the JSF program was shaky.

"For the record, we stand by JSF," said Cmdr. Jeff Davis, a Navy spokesman at the Pentagon. "It will bring enhanced capabilities to the fight and is the future strike fighter for the Navy and the joint force, and we stand by it."

Maj. Gen. Davis agreed the Navy isn't being "subversive" about its commitment to the program, but simply faces a money crunch.

"They have a very tough economic argument," JSF's Davis said. "It depends on how quickly they see F-18s falling out of service. … There is no doubt if we make the numbers match, the Navy would be on F-35 a lot faster.

"I don't agree with the premise they don't like the airplane. I believe they are honorable."

The JSF, which was recently reviewed by the Defense Acquisition Board (DAB), is expected to receive approval to begin its second Low Rate Initial Production phase.

Maj. Gen. Davis declined to comment on the DAB review. He said, however, that based on new calculations, the projected cost of the carrier variant has dropped 3 percent.

The Navy, the only apparent customer for the carrier variant, intends to buy about 25 aircraft annually starting in 2014. Current service plans call for buying a total of 360 of the carrier variant and 320 of the short-takeoff and -landing (STOVL) variant for the Marine Corps.

Meanwhile, the Navy has bought 332 F-18 Super Hornets and plans to buy another 161. And Boeing has just introduced a new version of the F-18, dubbed the 4.75 version, and is eager to land more Navy and international orders.

All that is worrying officials in the Marine Corps and Air Force - which wants 1,763 of the conventional-takeoff and -landing version of the plane - which are allied with eight other nations to develop and field JSF.

"Just as people are puzzling over the cost of F-35, you have one service considering slowing down its portion of the program," said Robbin Laird, a consultant who advises the Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy leadership. "That adds a big question to many others that are in the minds of allies who will be deciding their commitment to JSF over the next year or two."


High Stakes for U.K.

Britain, which wants 150 F-35B STOVL jets for its two new 65,000-ton aircraft carriers, is watching the U.S. Navy's evolving interest in more F-18s closely, sources said.

The Ministry of Defence will decide this summer whether to equip the Queen Elizabeth-class ships, which were intended to operate STOVL aircraft, with catapults and arresting gear for conventional carrier planes.

If the U.S. Navy seems likely to do something to boost the JSF's purchase price, the aircraft could become a target in the U.K. MoD, which is struggling to cut costs. That could force the Royal Navy to consider buying the F-18 or the Dassault Rafale, or even a navalized version of the Eurofighter.

But the U.S. Navy may have more at stake than aircraft budgets. Laird said that without the stealthy JSF to do "Day One" attacks on a heavily defended enemy, the service will struggle to justify having so many expensive nuclear aircraft carriers.

Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute agreed.

"Naval aviation will not survive beyond the next 20 years unless it fields the carrier version of the F-35 in large numbers," Thompson said. "Without the F-35, the Navy has little future in littoral warfare."

Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group agreed that a Navy delay could hurt the overall program.

"By moving away from JSF, the Navy is transmitting the message that current planes are good enough, and that is really damaging to JSF, which is all about stealth and fifth-generation capabilities," Aboulafia said.

The Navy has never been a fan of the program, Thompson and others said. In 2002, the service cut its JSF order by hundreds of aircraft under a plan to integrate Navy and Marine air forces, pushing up the predicted price tag, sources said.

Two years ago, the Navy balked at funding its share of JSF, but eventually found the money after being told to do so by Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England.

In 2006, the Navy circulated briefings urging the delaying the STOVL jet, arguing for more carrier versions. That plan drew a furious response from the Marines and British, and again England intervened on behalf of the program, and the Navy backed down.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Seems like Boeing might not be so desperate after alll... Interesting thought that the Brits might be forced to change, although I don't believe a second this will happen. But 27 moths over schedule and 38 billion $ over budget? Man, they're human after all! :D

DefenseNews reports:
The F-35 is not over budget, in fact it was recently stated by LM and the Pentagon that F-35 cost have gone down by $1 billion over the past year. As for that article I have already posted it on another forum. I highly doubt they will slow down the F-35 but they will probably but more F/A-18 Super Hornets to fill in the fighter gap.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The F-35 is not over budget, in fact it was recently stated by LM and the Pentagon that F-35 cost have gone down by $1 billion over the past year. As for that article I have already posted it on another forum. I highly doubt they will slow down the F-35 but they will probably but more F/A-18 Super Hornets to fill in the fighter gap.
No, F-35 costs haven't gone down. F-35 predicted costs, including predicted inflation over the life of the project (i.e. 20 years or so) have gone down 0.3%. Big deal. Is it a real reduction, or a change in the assumptions about future inflation?

F-35 predicted costs (REAL costs, not including inflation) went up 38% between 2001 & 2006, & had already risen considerably from original JSF estimates by 2001.

Personally, I think the "then-year" cost predictions are essentially meaningless, because of the built-in inflation assumptions, which not only impact the predicted cost directly, but are also sensitive to the production schedule.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
No, F-35 costs haven't gone down. F-35 predicted costs, including predicted inflation over the life of the project (i.e. 20 years or so) have gone down 0.3%. Big deal. Is it a real reduction, or a change in the assumptions about future inflation?

F-35 predicted costs (REAL costs, not including inflation) went up 38% between 2001 & 2006, & had already risen considerably from original JSF estimates by 2001.

Personally, I think the "then-year" cost predictions are essentially meaningless, because of the built-in inflation assumptions, which not only impact the predicted cost directly, but are also sensitive to the production schedule.
Ether way it still makes Congress happy for the good news. I think its some much needed good news in a long time.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Aussi Digger said:
AD Can you show why the Gripen would be capable of performing more missions per day than a similar sized fleet of Typhoons or F-35?
I believe i can show you why the Gripen would be capable of performing more missions per day than a similar sized fleet of Typhoons or F-35 :

JAS Gripen: Easy and quick turn-around, performed by conscripts; A-to-A 10 min, A-to-G 20 min. http://www.ntva.no/seminarer/manus/eddy-270207.pdf page 28. Can do hot refulling.

# Maintenance of GRIPEN:

* The MTBF for JAS-39A is 7.6 flight hours, and the SAAB declared that the MTBF for the USAF?s frontline fighters (except F/A-22 perhaps1) is no more than 4.1 flight hours.
* The man hours of maintenance for each flight-hour: 12 man-hours initially, than reduced to 10 man-hours (F/A-18 E/F: 15 man hours of maintenance for each flight-hour).

1As of 2007, the F22 where still flying less then 1 hour between maintenance actions (GAO-07-406SP). Primarily because of all the problems with maintaining the stealth characteristics (GAO-01-310). And i assume F35 uses the same materials. Thus F35 should be about the same hanger queen as F22.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Err, once again the F-18E/F and F-15 are twin-engined jets, the first being massively abused in a harsh environment (carrier ops & corrosion), the latter a 3rd gen big air superiority fighter.

Maintenance action and MTBF are not the same.

Further - the Gripen was at the time brand new, having much less flight hours to the average airframe than the ones in the US inventory.

Maintenance increase with age and use.

I believe i can show you why the Gripen would be capable of performing more missions per day than a similar sized fleet of Typhoons or F-35 :

JAS Gripen: Easy and quick turn-around, performed by conscripts; A-to-A 10 min, A-to-G 20 min. http://www.ntva.no/seminarer/manus/eddy-270207.pdf page 28. Can do hot refulling.

# Maintenance of GRIPEN:

* The MTBF for JAS-39A is 7.6 flight hours, and the SAAB declared that the MTBF for the USAF?s frontline fighters (except F/A-22 perhaps1) is no more than 4.1 flight hours.
* The man hours of maintenance for each flight-hour: 12 man-hours initially, than reduced to 10 man-hours (F/A-18 E/F: 15 man hours of maintenance for each flight-hour).

1As of 2007, the F22 where still flying less then 1 hour between maintenance actions (GAO-07-406SP). Primarily because of all the problems with maintaining the stealth characteristics (GAO-01-310). And i assume F35 uses the same materials. Thus F35 should be about the same hanger queen as F22.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Hmm, you are right, i should have cut the F18 part, my eyes hurt after staring at the screen for too long. I will have to borrow your comments now to reply Ozzy, hope you dont mind.

Ozzy Blizzard said:
F35A/C has a much higher range and payload than any of its contemporaries.
GD:"it seems that the F-35 has a similar range performance with 4 aams to the Gripen NG with 4 aams and at least 1 external tank. Approx 90 min @ 600 nm."

GD:"I wouldn't give the range advantage to the JSF so clearly. Based from what is available in the public domain, I'd conclude that with the increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG, they are pretty much equal, except on missions that require a very heavy weapons loadout."
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Last edited by gf0012-aust
Admin, Bernard, I have deleted your family name for privacy issues. It is of course your choice if you want it displayed, but my advice would be not to have it on display for the whole spamming world to see....
This is commendable:cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Hmm, you are right, i should have cut the F18 part, my eyes hurt after staring at the screen for too long. I will have to borrow your comments now to reply Ozzy, hope you dont mind.


GD:"it seems that the F-35 has a similar range performance with 4 aams to the Gripen NG with 4 aams and at least 1 external tank. Approx 90 min @ 600 nm."

GD:"I wouldn't give the range advantage to the JSF so clearly. Based from what is available in the public domain, I'd conclude that with the increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG, they are pretty much equal, except on missions that require a very heavy weapons loadout."
Nope... Ozzy is right. It is only in that particular mission/config that Gripen NG can play along...

Note the caveat "public domain." I tend to think that the F-35 actually has more range than put out in public, but do accept the public number for the sake of discussion.

Don't play posters against each other; make your own arguments.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
energo said:
That's a good point, hence the 100-160 million figure for the EF. The mentioned 40 million for the Gripen, though, are very old figures. The price for the modernized Gripen C including spares, maintainence equipment and inflation is closer to twice that.
:nonsense nonsense
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
F-35 may in fact "supercruise" to a degree. I certainly don't think it will reach F-22 level of speeds, but mach 1.3 or 1.4 "dry thrust" cruise speeds in operational configuration are by no means out of the question.
Do you have anything at all that justify that statement ?
All sources i've read out there tells me it cant. I suspect you play april with me;)
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Bearcat said:
Whats the top speed of the F-35? Reason I ask is russian TU-160's are regularly flying along the norwegian coast, and theese strategic aircraft are capable of mach 2.

In wartime, the role of the norwegian air force is air superiority until NATO can support Norway. Speed is essential in this scenario.

So, what's the top speed of the F-35?
The top speed is mach 1.6
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
The top speed is mach 1.6
IIRC the exact top speed is classified and in excess of M1.6. Considering a clean operational configuration and a 40,000lb+ thrust engine you could probably be safe to assume that intake design is the limiting factor in the platforms top speed, so M1.8~1.9 would be close IMO.
 

Dr Freud

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
There are so many issues involved in air combat, that why the F-35 even needs to "catch" a Mach 2 flying aircraft is beyond me.
One of the issues involved in air combat is to "catch" bombers and attack aircraft, preferably before they launch their missiles.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
One of the issues involved in air combat is to "catch" bombers and attack aircraft, preferably before they launch their missiles.
Then you are intercepting the inbound strike package, which even if its a backfire can only sustain high mach speeds for a limited time due to fuel constraints. Its probably comeing toward you, therefore you dont have to run it down and you dont allways have to go balls to the wall M2.5 to get to a missile launch position in time. With a large enough sensor footprint you can mosie on out to an intercept point with plenty of time to spare, there are a few ways to skin a backfire you know...:D
 

Dr Freud

New Member
F15 Eagle said:
OK first of all, the TU-160 can only go at Mach 2 for a few minutes, they almost always cruse, they don't go at top speed on the QRA-role ether, they are always cruising at around 400-600mph. Finally, no the F-35 will do a good 1200mph, you must be thinking about the X-35 prototype, it only did Mach 1.5, but the F-35 is rated for Mach 1.8 maybe more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-160
# Range: 17,400 km (9,400 nm, 10,800 mi) unrefueled
# Combat radius: 10,500 km (5,670 NM, 6,500 mi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
# Range: A: 1,200 nmi; B: 900 nm; C: 1400 nm[65] (A: 2,200 km; B: 1,667 km; C: 2,593 km) on internal fuel
# Combat radius: 600 nmi (690 mi, 1,110 km)
6500 mi /690 mi= 9.2 times longer combat radius :

F-35 Internal Fuel ~18,000 lbs
(1 x F135-PW-100)
~43,000 lbs A/B thrust @ ~2.0 lb/lb.hr = ~0.2093 hr = ~12.6 min

Now are you saying a strategic intercontinental bomber has less range then a fighterbomber ?:rolleyes:
 
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