U.S. Navy faces fighter gap.

F-15 Eagle

New Member
The U.S. Navy is thinking about buying more F-18s to brigde to gap btween the current F-18s retiring and the introduction of the F-35. Well at the same time they are thinking about ether speeding up or delaying the F-35C.

It would be a very stupid move on the Navy's part to just delay the F-35C and possibly cut some of the F-35Cs. That would only make things worse and not help the whole fighter shortage that their facing. Delaying it will only make the fighter gap bigger and the prise will go up, speeding it along will help close the fighter gap and lower the price tag. If the Navy delays the F-35 then they are only damaging themselfs and it has the Air Force and USMC woried as well. The F-18s will not survive in future conficts without stealth and they need the F-35. Looks like the Navy is going to hurt itself if they delay the F-35.

Link: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3466832&c=FEA&s=CVS
 

ROCK45

New Member
Navy

Hi F-15 Eagle
I kind of have a different view on this and I'll try to explain my point. I think the USN realizes that the F-35 is still years away and the see very well what's happening in the USAF, F-15/16 fleet is getting up there in age. The USAF F-22 order is down to what 197 I think and there's like 400+ F-15s to replace. I think the Navy doing a better job not getting caught short handed fighter wise. The USAF also has so many more types to maintain it's very complex. A few years ago the USAF had 95 Wings not squadrons but Wings, not sure where that number is today or how many squadrons in a Wing. Remember the Navy has a lot more to deal with budget wise then just aircraft, maintaining carriers fleets, ships, subs, bases, etc, are costly. The USN like the USAF is huge and world wide 24/7 and like parts of the AF must maintain a nuclear force as well.
Air threats to USN fleets - This is another area where most hot spots or problems are dealt with Air Force assets first. There only a handful of advance Flankers in the world flying, no Rafale's, and Typhoon's for now are on our side so threat wise E/F Hornet's do well with other combined assets all working together. China's not fielding large numbers of J-10 fighters yet or J-11B, and were not at war with China, so threat/budget wise the Navy can wait 3/4 more years for there F-35s. This also tells says the E/F Hornets are better then everybody thinks they are too even know most people hate this fighter. For selfish reasons I want the USN to get Block-II F-35s like Microsoft products I'll wait for the first service pack to come out.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Unlike the Raptors, which couldn't get the green light for multi-year production from any of the six organizations tasked to do so, the Super Hornet has from all six. Unfortunately, for the USAF the Raptor doesn't have the USN support like the Lightning IIs. Good-bye Raptor production lines. Obey has his objective in sight, October of this year.

Which brings us back to the decision of buying Lockheed products. It appears from this taxpayers point of view, Lockheed's management has failed not only us but the USAF and USN.

Makes you wonder whether Lockheed will survive in the long run.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Unlike the Raptors, which couldn't get the green light for multi-year production from any of the six organizations tasked to do so, the Super Hornet has from all six. Unfortunately, for the USAF the Raptor doesn't have the USN support like the Lightning IIs. Good-bye Raptor production lines. Obey has his objective in sight, October of this year.

Which brings us back to the decision of buying Lockheed products. It appears from this taxpayers point of view, Lockheed's management has failed not only us but the USAF and USN.

Makes you wonder whether Lockheed will survive in the long run.
Lockheed will survive if they build all of the F-35s. If the USN supports the F-35 then why would they consider delaying the F-35 and making the problem worse?

If the F-35C is delayed for however long, then will there be an impact on the USAF and USMC and export F-35s?
 

Sea Toby

New Member
While I don't like to point fingers as a Monday morning quarterback, I have come to the conclusion while Lockheed had the better aircraft, as a corporation Lockheed's financial management of the two stealth programs leaves a lot to be desired. Ask the GAO what they think of Lockheed? One wonders whether we would have been better off buying Boeing products, anything but Lockheed!

Lockheed is operating as if they push hard enough, they will get the orders, nevermind any management of costs. And I say its time to put them out of business, Congress should be voting whether they fine Lockheed so much to force Lockheed's collapse. How dare them ask for more money.....or the costs have gone up, say double.....

While Congress won't go so far, I doubt whether this Congress will ever award a contract to Lockheed again! Its not as if the C-130J program is doing well either. I wouldn't be surprised if Airbus won that contract too. At least the USAF would get a better aircraft!

What does Lockheed use as a knife? Spoons to heap more costs!
 
Last edited:

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
While I don't like to point fingers as a Monday morning quarterback, I have come to the conclusion while Lockheed had the better aircraft, as a corporation Lockheed's financial management of the two stealth programs leaves a lot to be desired. Ask the GAO what they think of Lockheed? One wonders whether we would have been better off buying Boeing products, anything but Lockheed!

Lockheed is operating as if they push hard enough, they will get the orders, nevermind any management of costs. And I say its time to put them out of business, Congress should be voting whether they fine Lockheed so much to force Lockheed's collapse. How dare them ask for more money.....or the costs have gone up, say double.....

While Congress won't go so far, I doubt whether this Congress will ever award a contract to Lockheed again! Its not as if the C-130J program is doing well either. I wouldn't be surprised if Airbus won that contract too. At least the USAF would get a better aircraft!

What does Lockheed use as a knife? Spoons to heap more costs!
I do agree with you on that one. Lockheed really needs to get their act together and have proper cost control and management. Boeing did a much better job than Lockheed when they used to build fighter jets. I could not agree with you more on that one, they really really need to get a clue!!!

That does not mean they will go for it, its just a report from a Boeing executive.

Also the F-18 is not better than the F-35. The F-35 will be a much better fighter and I think its worth the cost to keep building the F-35. Do they need better management on the cost? Yes they do but do I think they should just drop the F-35C for a upgraded super hornet, no they should not. It would also be hard to imagine the Pentagon cutting the F-35, that wont happen.
 

Generalissimo

New Member
The USN can stretch its F/A-18 fleet for a few more years. They're in good shape and are years younger than the USAFs F-15s and F-16s. The Ds and E/Fs will be around for a while even after the F-35 is in service, sharing the load until the transition to all F-35s is complete. Even after that we will probably keep F/A-18s around for tanker duty and other assorted tasks.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
According to a new report the USAF and the Pentagon have just said the F-35 will cost less then now expected and the program cost has declined in the past 12 months. The F-35 is not going to be a run-away budget buster as some have thought. The annual report to Congress now estimates the total cost of the F-35 program at $298.9 billion, about $1 billion less than was estimated a year ago.

See for yourself: http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/568197.html
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think 298.9 billion is already a runaway project cost. On a related note does the F-35 have thrust vectoring?
 

rjmaz1

New Member
I think 298.9 billion is already a runaway project cost. On a related note does the F-35 have thrust vectoring?
No, the F-35 doesn't require it.

Thrust vectoring is mainly beneficial on aircraft designs that use high speed orientated wings with high stall speeds such as the F-22. Thrust vectoring gives the F-22 the ability to maintain agility when it is close to stalling. Most other aircraft would not be close to stalling so can maintain high levels of agility with conventional flight control surfaces.

Its all a compromise.

The F-35 is not inferior because it doesn't have thrust vectoring in fact you could consider it superior in that that its low speed agility is so good that it does not require it.

This same stance can be taken on the F-22. The F-22 could be regarded as superior that it has thrust vectoring to give it an edge at low speed, however you could also say that the design is inferior due to it requiring thrust vectoring in the first place. :)
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
I think 298.9 billion is already a runaway project cost. On a related note does the F-35 have thrust vectoring?
How is it a run away cost if it went down $1 billion dollars over the past year? Well its not running away in cost.

Even if the entire F-35 program cost $1 trillion it would still be cheaper than maintaining todays current fighter fleet.
 

Generalissimo

New Member
How is it a run away cost if it went down $1 billion dollars over the past year? Well its not running away in cost.
Yes that's wht the Pentagon says. I'm sure that the bean counters have just shuffled the numbers to satisfy the politicians. I seriously doubt that they just discovered it's cheaper than they planned. Maybe the original estimate was artificially inflated to create this situation.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Yes that's wht the Pentagon says. I'm sure that the bean counters have just shuffled the numbers to satisfy the politicians. I seriously doubt that they just discovered it's cheaper than they planned. Maybe the original estimate was artificially inflated to create this situation.
I'd say your making that up and I'm going to go with the facts.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
How is it a run away cost if it went down $1 billion dollars over the past year? Well its not running away in cost.

Even if the entire F-35 program cost $1 trillion it would still be cheaper than maintaining todays current fighter fleet.
While I tend to agree with the project seeming reasonable, to your latter statement I wouldn't mind see some facts to go with that statement at least your logic behind such a statement.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
How is it a run away cost if it went down $1 billion dollars over the past year? Well its not running away in cost.....
That price is at "then-year" dollars, & depends on inflation predictions. 0.3% over 30 years is a blip. It's not significant. What's happened to the constant-price cost? That's the number that matters.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
USAF joins USN in warning of fighter gap.

U.S. Air Force and Navy officials gave Congress a bleak assessment of the Pentagon's future fighter fleet, warning lawmakers the military might be 900 fighter jets short of what it will need around 2020. Senior naval officials in the last few months have talked publicly about a "fighter gap" between 2015 and 2025, during which time they say the Navy and Marine Corps would be about 170 fighters short of what officials expect would be needed to carry out possible missions. During an April 9 Senate Armed Services airland subcommittee hearing, Rear Adm. Allen Myers, director of the service's air warfare division, indicated the sea service's gap could be about 70 planes deep.
As panel members were still digesting that figure, senior Air Force officials dropped their own acquisition bomb. Air Force Lt. Gen. Daniel Darnell indicated his service could face an even larger deficit of needed fighters, possibly as large as "over 800 fighters" between 2017 and 2024. Darnell is the Air Force's deputy chief of staff for air, space and information operations, plans and requirements.
Service spokeswoman Lt. Col. Jennifer Cassidy confirmed the 800 fighter figure about an hour after the hearing was gaveled closed by the panen's chairman, Sen. Joseph Lieberman, I-Conn.
Part of that so-called "gap" reflects senior Air Force leaders' staunch belief in the need to field about 380 Lockheed Martin-built F-22 Raptors. The Office of the Secretary of Defense, including powerful Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England, has repeatedly shot down the service's intentions, holding firm to the planned buy of 183.
But even if the service eventually wins out in the ongoing F-22 debate and gets around 400 Raptors, "that won't completely make up the gap," Lt. Gen. Donald Hoffman, military deputy to the service's acquisition chief, told reporters following the hearing.
The gap "is all about the JSF production rate," he said, referring to how quickly - and how many - of Lockheed's tri-service, international F-35 Joint Strike Fighters the Air Force can buy between now and then.
Lockheed is building the multibillion-dollar fighter for the U.S. Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps, as well as about a dozen international partners. But while attempting to get a grasp on how it can manage its "fighter gap," Navy officials have floated the idea of delaying its version of the F-35 in favor of buying new - and upgrading older - Boeing-made F/A-18 Hornets.
However, if naval officials opt for such a plan, it would send ripple waves across the trans-Atlantic fighter program, Hoffman warned.
"We have very tight room for hiccups with the JSF schedule," he told reporters. "If one [participant] changes its schedule, that'll have adverse effects for all of us."
Officials from both services told the subcommittee they have launched a slate of reviews aimed at determining how to manage their perceived tactical aircraft gaps.
The Navy expects by the end of the summer to have sufficient data on its gap to start making decisions on how best to manage it, according to Myers and William Balderson, deputy assistant Navy secretary for air programs.
"It is our challenge" during the remainder of the 2009 budget cycle, and while building the 2010 Navy budget request, to begin figuring out how to fill the sea service's gap, Myers told a reporter.
The Air Force, meantime, already has launched its own review to determine how many legacy F-15s and F-16s it might have to try and keep operationally fit to help manage its perceived fighter deficit, Hoffman said.
The handful of panel members who attended the session were sympathetic to each service's tales of woe. Near the conclusion of the session, Lieberman said the subcommittee will do "everything within our power to stretch" federal resources so the officials could buy what they feel is needed to conduct future missions.
 

Generalissimo

New Member
I'd say your making that up and I'm going to go with the facts.
Well I am a bit prone to conspiracy theory, but look at what swerve said earlier. That's how budget fights go, the services do whatever they can to get the money they want. If they can make themselves look more efficent then that will help them further down the line. I don't have any proof that this specific incident is a "lie", but I so stand by the statement that there's a real possibility that the "billion dollar bonus" is a fiction created by manipulation of exsisting numbers.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Makes you wonder whether Lockheed will survive in the long run.
Lockheed Martin is actually some 40 different divisions in systems groups.

Aeronautical Systems, the most well known, is the largest systems group, however only makes up just 32% of the total company.

The rest are:

Integrated Systems Solutions - 11%

Electronics Systems - 28%

Space Systems - 19%

Technology Services - 10%
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
As the USAF faces a fighter gap of 800 aircraft between 2017 and 2024 they are now doing a study to see how many F-15s and F-16s they will keep. Right now 177 F-15Cs are going to remain in service until 2024 or more but that number could go up. They are also plaining to see how many F-16s they will keep to help bridge the fighter gap. The USAF only getting 183 f-22s instead of 381 is a factor but also becasue they are only going to build 48 F-35s a year instead of the 110 needed.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_jsf_041508/
 
Top