Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I believe that the raptors need fewer numbers but have same capability, they are a huge leap over existing fighters, unmatched really...(well so far). So before anyone starts on about the USAF needing more F-22's than it bought is well erm, a little wrong... If this aircraft can take down more planes with less aircraft the USAF does not need to supplement ALL the F-15's it is simply not cost effective...
That depends on the threat environment. The whole "4 times more capable argument" is isntantly mooted when the threat moves forward a generation. Did we halve our fighter force when we transitioned from Mirage to Hornet? An F/A-18A would have been twice as capable after all.

Australia is not looking for a dedicated fighter capability, imagine the costs associated (excluding the cost of the aircraft) with maintaining two types of such advanced aircraft... Secondly, the F-35 has the exact same capabilities (minus "supercruise") and can carry similar payloads and fuel loads and has the same LO characteristics of the F-22 although one thing that could be added to both aircraft is 3D thrust vectoring.
The cost of operateing an F-22A fleet would be marginally more than an F-35, but comperable AFAIK. Both platforms have the logistical complications of maintaining LO but IIRC measures have been introduced to minimize its logistical impact and baseing footprint in both programmes. The real increase in cost would be in the aquisition cost, which could be 150~200% higher (which would probably mean a 50~100% increase in through life costs). We would also loose the advantages of a one platfrom fleet, but it seems we intend to sacrifice this with the F-35 & F/A-18F BII fleet anyway.

A multi role F-22A (ala F-15E) would need to be developed to make it a more attractive option. I wont go into the likelyhood of this occuring (sorry MOD's), but slim to none may be an apt discription.

In fact, you could almost say the the F-35 is a better aircraft overall because of its more capable "5.1" (raptor being 5.0) architecture and the above characteristics, only outmatched in a dogfight or against an F-22 (or comparable) aircraft.
The MMI, EW/EWSP, weapons & sensor suites should all be more advanced on the F-35 at IOC, but again it would be hard to argue it was superior or more advanced. The F-16 was technologically more advanced than the F-15 at IOC but you could hardly argue that it was 4.1th gen compared to 4th. One may be more versatile or affordable but overall superiority is subjective. They are both designed for different roles therefore meaningfull comparisons in terms of superiority are difficult to achieve.
 
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lobbie111

New Member
That depends on the threat environment. The whole "4 times more capable argument" is isntantly mooted when the threat moves forward a generation. Did we halve our fighter force when we transitioned from Mirage to Hornet? An F/A-18A would have been twice as capable after all.
I agree with what you have said to a point, in the Australian Example halving our fighter force leaves us with an almost non existent capability Australia is currently at our bare bones as such in terms of force, we have the smallest force possible to remain effective, with the F-35 purchase of 100 we are essentially putting meat on our bones.

The US however has an on overkill number of fighters designed for a cold war scenario, this can work for the US in that they may have say 1000 F-15's but to keep the same effectiveness nowadays it only needs say 500 (just throwing figures around).

The cost of operateing an F-22A fleet would be marginally more than an F-35, but comperable AFAIK. Both platforms have the logistical complications of maintaining LO but IIRC measures have been introduced to minimize its logistical impact and baseing footprint in both programmes. The real increase in cost would be in the aquisition cost, which could be 150~200% higher (which would probably mean a 50~100% increase in through life costs). We would also loose the advantages of a one platfrom fleet, but it seems we intend to sacrifice this with the F-35 & F/A-18F BII fleet anyway.

A multi role F-22A (ala F-15E) would need to be developed to make it a more attractive option. I wont go into the likelyhood of this occuring (sorry MOD's), but slim to none may be an apt discription.
The cost of operating two types at once in a budget where the hornets only occasionally get to come out and play (ie it has to be budgeted for) I heard the figures of 500 000 to fully fuel (and arm?) one F/A-18. Imagine trying to maintain an effective unit across three types of aircraft when just fueling those beasts costs half the defence budget...not to mention maintenance.

The MMI, EW/EWSP, weapons & sensor suites should all be more advanced on the F-35 at IOC, but again it would be hard to argue it was superior or more advanced. The F-16 was technologically more advanced than the F-15 at IOC but you could hardly argue that it was 4.1th gen compared to 4th. One may be more versatile or affordable but overall superiority is subjective They are both designed for different roles therefore meaningfull comparisons in terms of superiority are difficult to achieve.
As I mentioned in my previous post, an F-35 could beat an F-22 one on one but they would most likely both go down and in a dogfight an F-35 is useless. F-35 has the advantage of EOTS, ie being a 50 mile Sniper, and F-22 however needs an external pod that compromises stealth.

F-35 uses different easier to maintain materials than the F-22 which gives it another advantage over the F-22.

Oh and Btw, an F-16 has fly by wire an F-15 doesn't, this to an extent gives it an edge, only limited by range and payload, F-22 and F-35 share similar fuel loadouts and payload.

But I am in agreement that the two cannot be compared...and there is no clear winner
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
I agree with what you have said to a point, in the Australian Example halving our fighter force leaves us with an almost non existent capability Australia is currently at our bare bones as such in terms of force, we have the smallest force possible to remain effective, with the F-35 purchase of 100 we are essentially putting meat on our bones.
One platform can only be in one place at a time. 80~100 platforms or 4 squadrons, (no matter the generation) are the minimum needed for the RAAF. This holds true for Mirages, Hornets, Rhino's, Lightning's or Raptors. Effective capability is always dependant on the threat environment, therefore even though the new fighter they have may be 3 or 4 times as capable as the previous gen, you can not have 1/4th the orbat and expact to have comperable capability simply because the threat has evolved too. Therefore the "it can do the job of 3 XX's" argument is a moot one IMO.

The US however has an on overkill number of fighters designed for a cold war scenario, this can work for the US in that they may have say 1000 F-15's but to keep the same effectiveness nowadays it only needs say 500 (just throwing figures around).
Thats a subjective assesment of the US's strategic requirements. Put simply if the USAF replaces 3000 F-16's, F-15's and A-10's with 2000 F-35's and F-22's they will suffer a loss of capability in contemporary terms rather than agregate. This is what i mean by the whole "3x more capable than last gen" argument which seems to be the basis for the above statement. You cant view your agregate capability alone and expect to be realistic, everything needs to be weighed against the threat.

Now does the USAF of 2020 need a fighter force the size the current beast to maintain its contemporary capability? Maybe not, considering the generational edge it enjoys now and evolveing strategic aims. But once the threat evolves to a similar level (i.e. post 2020) then (all else being equal) they will suffer a capability decline.

The cost of operating two types at once in a budget where the hornets only occasionally get to come out and play (ie it has to be budgeted for) I heard the figures of 500 000 to fully fuel (and arm?) one F/A-18. Imagine trying to maintain an effective unit across three types of aircraft when just fueling those beasts costs half the defence budget...not to mention maintenance.
Somehow i doubt aviation fuel is that expensive (not withstanding the hidious price at the local servo :mad ). That would mean over $100 a kg.

It would cost more than that to fully arm a Hornet, AMRAAM's alone are over $100G's a pop. But again how often do they actually fire one? Anyway we are operating a 2 platform fleet now and will be out to 2020 and possibly beyond so i'm sure we can manage it.


As I mentioned in my previous post, an F-35 could beat an F-22 one on one but they would most likely both go down and in a dogfight an F-35 is useless. F-35 has the advantage of EOTS, ie being a 50 mile Sniper, and F-22 however needs an external pod that compromises stealth.
A one on one is a poor judgement of capability. When are they ever going to fight one annother? Were they designed for that? No. Therefore whats the point of such a comparison (apart from the fact that they can be fun once in a while)? What matters is which platform can do the task it has been set in the most effective maner, in the current threat environment. Therefore what is best is conditional on the tasking and operational requirements you have as the user.

In any case if they were to go one on one EOTS would be an advantage, but current BVR weapons would probably bu near useless in a head on shot anyway considering their respective EWSP suites and frontal X band RCS. It would degrade to WVR mighty quickly and there its would be near even. The EODAS + AIM 9X BII combination would more than equate for the F-22A's superior instentainious turn rates, but the Raptors superior kinematical capability would also be telling. Too close to call IMO.

F-35 uses different easier to maintain materials than the F-22 which gives it another advantage over the F-22.
I understand it has a smaller baseing footprint as one of the design goals, but just how much smaller than the F-22A (which has similar measures compared to the F-117) remains to be seen. The logistical costs would be comperable anyway.

Oh and Btw, an F-16 has fly by wire an F-15 doesn't, this to an extent gives it an edge, only limited by range and payload, F-22 and F-35 share similar fuel loadouts and payload.
The later design of the F-16 means it has a few more modern features than the F-15, such as an unstable designe. However the F-15's superiority is ot only dependant on range and payload. The F-15 has been the most capable air superiority asset in the last 30 years for a reason, even if airframe design and some avionics componants of the F-16 were more modern, the superiori radar missile combination and kinematical performance meant that the F-15 was and is a far more capable air superiority asset. The same can be said for the F-22 vis a vis the F-35 even though some componants of the latter weremore advanced. Of cource the F-16 was far more flexible than the F-15A~D but this can be atributed to its design goals.
 

lobbie111

New Member
Lets just agree to disagree on some points and agree that both aircraft have different roles and in event of combat it will be the effectivness of support units such as AWACs that will make the difference which, thankfully Australia has procured a system that will remain effective for a long time to come, does the wedgetail have any advantages over the E-3? Also can the F-35 transmit data using its radar via Wifi as on the F-22 that they are experimenting?
 

battlensign

New Member
On the SHornet:

Having spoken to the Minister himself on this issue, it was the intention of the RAAF and the DEFMIN at the time of announcing the acquisition (and even up till last week when we were discussing it) that the two platform fleet would be phased out with plan of reselling the aircraft back to the US Navy at the appropriate time.

Additionally, it was apparently thought that this acquisition would equate to a bargaining position with Boeing and LockMart when the time to negotiate prices for the JSF came.

From these discussions it appeared that the "totality" of the gaps in time-frames was the driving issue rather than one specific concern. I.e Wedgetail, MRTT, CBR, F-111 and JSF.

Brett.
 
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lobbie111

New Member
Sorry if this sounds dumb but can you explain what CBR is in your list of aicraft above battlensign. I probably know it just not its shortened name...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
On the SHornet:

Having spoken to the Minister himself on this issue

Brett.

Mate, you will need to PM me or Aussie Digger if you are making claims about access to the DefMin.

As you can appreciate, we get people claiming things now and then which then require us to confirm them for professional integrity issues.

I am curious as there is no direct access to the DefMin except via a proscribed method, so if you can fill us in to validate your claims it would be appreciated.

I note you said you discussed this a few weeks ago, as you know Nelson hasn't been on the job for quite a while.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Probably means classic Hornet Centre Barrel Replacement in that context, gf.

Cheers
Yeah, I realised that after the event, for some reason I was thinking that the request was related to his location... :confused:
 

battlensign

New Member
On My Shornet Comments....

Hello Again people :cool: :

Sorry lobbie (and gf), yes (magoo was right) in this context CBR was intented to mean the classic hornet Centre Barrel Replacement program.

I was merely attempting to describe the effect that the delays in all of these critical aspects of the RAAF were likely to have on overall RAAF capabilities in the 2010-2014 period etc.

Brett.

P.S gf check your PM's. :)
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
G'day everyone...

i've got an anoying little question...

Just wondering wether anyone could tell me the date AIM-120 reached IOC with the RAAF and wether it was an AIM-120A or AIM-120B, google's really not helping.

'bit of a noob question i know but any help would be much apreciated.:D
 

rossfrb_1

Member
G'day everyone...

i've got an anoying little question...

Just wondering wether anyone could tell me the date AIM-120 reached IOC with the RAAF and wether it was an AIM-120A or AIM-120B, google's really not helping.

'bit of a noob question i know but any help would be much apreciated.:D
according to
http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html it was 120B - yeah, I know APA:rolleyes:
From a rather suss memory in service 2001ish.
Sorry can't be more specific ATM.

rb
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
G'day everyone...

i've got an anoying little question...

Just wondering wether anyone could tell me the date AIM-120 reached IOC with the RAAF and wether it was an AIM-120A or AIM-120B, google's really not helping.

'bit of a noob question i know but any help would be much apreciated.:D
The Hornets achieved IOC on the AIM-120B just before they deployed to Diego Garcia in 2002 I believe. They still had the AIM-9M then too.

RAAF now operates the AIM-120C-5 variant I believe...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Muchos Gracias..... :D
Amazing what a tiny bit of research can dig up. I became interested in this, after you posted it.

According to this:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/2001/4308/story14.htm

The AIM-120 AMRAAM reached IOC in November 2001 in RAAF.

The AIM-132 ASRAAM reached IOC in 2004. A clip of a RAAF ASRAAM firing is available here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4606/video/ASRAAM Firing.mpg


This image:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4412/IMAGES/004_th.jpg

Shows the last modified HUG Phase 1 Hornets on display, with the "large wing" AMRAAM variant under it's starboard shoulder pylon in July 2002.

And the DoD website on it's "weapons manual publications list" shows the AIM-120B AMRAAM "manual" being in-service from 03/07/2003

AAP7357.006-2M-1(AM1) AMRAAM SYSTEM AIM-120B AND CATM-120A OPERATIONAL MAINTENANCE MANUAL 03/07/03 6


I think that should suffice... :)
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Amazing what a tiny bit of research can dig up. I became interested in this, after you posted it.

According to this:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/2001/4308/story14.htm

The AIM-120 AMRAAM reached IOC in November 2001 in RAAF.

The AIM-132 ASRAAM reached IOC in 2004. A clip of a RAAF ASRAAM firing is available here:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4606/video/ASRAAM Firing.mpg


This image:

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4412/IMAGES/004_th.jpg

Shows the last modified HUG Phase 1 Hornets on display, with the "large wing" AMRAAM variant under it's starboard shoulder pylon in July 2002.

And the DoD website on it's "weapons manual publications list" shows the AIM-120B AMRAAM "manual" being in-service from 03/07/2003

AAP7357.006-2M-1(AM1) AMRAAM SYSTEM AIM-120B AND CATM-120A OPERATIONAL MAINTENANCE MANUAL 03/07/03 6


I think that should suffice... :)

Thanx AD, thats plenty! Man my research skill sucks! I spent an hour on google and found nothing. Go figure..:rolleyes:
 

battlensign

New Member
Hello All

Did we all manage to catch the ABC's show, The 7.30 Report, last night to see their most recent segment on the F-22 v JSF debate? For those that missed I will post a link to the ABC program website in a tic - stand by......(Our friends from APA were there..... - they have a wiki page now)

Brett
 
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