Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think Sea Toby's guess of an army air group made up of a mix of 12 x MRH-90s and 4 x Tiger ARHs would be close to the money for an LHD deploying to an operational area, if it is transporting and sustaining an army battle group. A couple of CH-47D Chinooks or naval S-70B Seahawks (to provide organic ASW protection) might be carried instead of some of the MRH-90s. A ships flight of 1-2 naval MRH-90s would most likely also be embarked.

The air group could be tailored to suit other roles such as disaster relief (for example 4 - 6 MRH-90s and maybe 1- 2 CH-47D Chinooks).

In peacetime I would expect the number of army helos would be varied to suit particular training missions. For a major exercise I would expect the mix to be close to what would be embarked for an operational deployment.

Re the Seasprite cancellation and its effect on the Anzacs it will just mean a continuation of present practice until either the NFH-90 or MH-60R has been ordered and delivered. They will have to continue to share the 16 x S-70B Seahawks with the FFGs. As a result I expect that we can expect to see ships not on deployment sailing without a helicopter on most occasions. It’s rare to see a helo on either an FFH or FFG nowadays when they visit Hobart whereas a few years ago an FFG almost always seemed to have one on board.


Tas
Keep in mind,the question here is will the Government of the day send that many helos? They could view Tigers as being provocative, so many helos could lead to a disaster etc. so until the scenario occurs it may be unknown whats sent. Task force wise the 12-4 mix would be the smartest scenario, but theres no such thing as smart in Govt.

With regards to helos several ships i visited don't normally carry one when in Australia on Port visits, too much money and not enough people to work with most likely reason. I wonder if that deal from Sikorsky is still open and being reviewed, trouble is they will wait for the white paper which may lead to a tender process, when the seahawk is fitted with penquin missiles on US and Greek Navy helos, which was the main reason for the Seasprite, ASW.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
HMAS Rankin forced to quit exercise

According to a report in today's Hobart Mercury, HMAS Rankin one of Australia's "troubled Collins class submarines", has been forced to abandon an exercise in the Tasman Sea and return to Port Adelaide on the surface as a result of battery failure.

The media just cannot get away from describing the Collins class as "troubled!" :rolleyes:

I haven't seen any official comment yet about the incident.

Tas
 

Grandstrat

New Member
According to a report in today's Hobart Mercury, HMAS Rankin one of Australia's "troubled Collins class submarines", has been forced to abandon an exercise in the Tasman Sea and return to Port Adelaide on the surface as a result of battery failure.

The media just cannot get away from describing the Collins class as "troubled!" :rolleyes:

I haven't seen any official comment yet about the incident.

Tas
If it had to abandon an excersize because of battery failure it sounds like it's in trouble to me. With all the problems they had with the first sub in the begining, problems with engine noise, hull shaping problems, the combat system having to be replaced, faulty pipes, failure of the seawater hose. Now we can only crew half of them?

They are certainly good subs, but its hardly been a happy existance.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If it had to abandon an excersize because of battery failure it sounds like it's in trouble to me. With all the problems they had with the first sub in the begining, problems with engine noise, hull shaping problems, the combat system having to be replaced, faulty pipes, failure of the seawater hose. Now we can only crew half of them?

They are certainly good subs, but its hardly been a happy existance.
Failure to complete an exercise due to mechanical problems is hardly a new thing. Last year on Adelaide alone we had to come in early twice due to a fire in our gas turbine module and another in a switchboard. Other times we were late sailing due a number of reasons, once due to faulty steering gear and another due to not having an LSBM(SE) available. It is just accepted, things breakdown at the most in-opertune times, Adelaide was getting very cantakerous in her old age. ;)
The crewing issue is not just restricted to the subs, but the skimmers aswell. The Navy is about to bring in a Capability Allowance, basically a lump sum to sign on again for 18 months if you have finished your initial term. It is meant to give the brass some breathing space to work out a better retention scheme.
Cheers.
 

Grandstrat

New Member
Failure to complete an exercise due to mechanical problems is hardly a new thing. Last year on Adelaide alone we had to come in early twice due to a fire in our gas turbine module and another in a switchboard. Other times we were late sailing due a number of reasons, once due to faulty steering gear and another due to not having an LSBM(SE) available. It is just accepted, things breakdown at the most in-opertune times, Adelaide was getting very cantakerous in her old age. ;)
The crewing issue is not just restricted to the subs, but the skimmers aswell. The Navy is about to bring in a Capability Allowance, basically a lump sum to sign on again for 18 months if you have finished your initial term. It is meant to give the brass some breathing space to work out a better retention scheme.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Do you feel that many people are going to take allowance or not?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I really think its time for ADF to re-introduce a DFRDB type super scheme with a pension after 20 years service.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I really think its time for ADF to re-introduce a DFRDB type super scheme with a pension after 20 years service.
Hi guys

I think you are right in that respect for people stay on in all the services; it has to gives them some incentive to stay on longer even better if they double the rate that is mandatory that they get now which I think is 9%.( if polies get a good super for serving in parliament so can the people in the ADF got more to lose if something goes wrong not just the electorate casting you aside at election time)

People in the service do have a bit of a raw deal with getting moved a round a bit, also makes it harder when you have young kiddies or older student that are in high school.
I know of people who have gotten out for that very reason wanted some stability for the kids doing their hsc and would have to move mid year.

But I think it has a few more issues that need to brought to attention to the powers to be,

1 pay rates for private /sailors /airmen
2 housing
3 conditions of service
4 faster promotion systems

I think people could go on for hours on thing they like to change but that might be better in another thread.

Regards
Tom
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Cheers.
Do you feel that many people are going to take allowance or not?
Most people will I believe. There are some who will still be getting out no matter what, it is just too late to try to entice them to stay in. I myself will be taking it, 27grand over 18 months, I was intending to stay in until end of 2010 anyway.
As for a return of DFRDB, from what I hear it won't happen. There is scheduled to be a change in MSBS around July which is meant to be better.
I am waiting for the Defence Home Loan Scheme to kick in in July where they will pay off part of your interest of your homeloan. It will be staggered upon how long you have been in.
Cheers.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
yes but are you???

Uniforms are gonna be affected, maybe indirectly, but they will feel the pinch.
To paraphrase Stan Lee(??) "Nobody knows but the phantom". :) Signals management is a "popular" trade in and out of this "industry"....

The irony of course is that any cuts to the suits will have an impact upon
the uniforms.
 

WillS

Member
Isn't the AWD settled?

Maybe I've missed something but a news item on this site regarding an equipment order for Italian FREMM Frigates contains the following paragraph:

"A variant of the FREMM ASW configuration has recently been proposed for the Air Warfare Destroyer programme for the Royal Australian Navy"

Is the RAN seriously re-visiting this program (as part of the "we're a new government and we need to demonstrate we disagree with everything the last lot did" rubbish that all new government indulge in) or are Thales talking rubbish and trying to re-define the word 'recently'?

WillS
www.boilingthefrog.co.uk
 

Sea Toby

New Member
With a new white paper, everything is up for grabs. Unfortunately, we know ASW general purpose frigates are much cheaper than area defense frigates or destroyers. There are always cheaper alternatives out there, but will they answer the reasons why a DDG or FFG was ordered and wanted by the last white paper? i am sure the new white paper will discuss whether Australia needs the capacity to sea lift 2000 soldiers, too. Implying four LPDs could do the job of two LHDs. the question remains whether Australia can find the crews for four LPDs? Or the crews for two LHDs. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a white paper.

White papers are supposed to be unpartisan in nature, unfortunately, white papers have been used by political parties currently in power to promote their agendas. How far does the new government want to upset the orders of the last government?
 
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harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe I've missed something but a news item on this site regarding an equipment order for Italian FREMM Frigates contains the following paragraph:

"A variant of the FREMM ASW configuration has recently been proposed for the Air Warfare Destroyer programme for the Royal Australian Navy"

Is the RAN seriously re-visiting this program (as part of the "we're a new government and we need to demonstrate we disagree with everything the last lot did" rubbish that all new government indulge in) or are Thales talking rubbish and trying to re-define the word 'recently'?

WillS
www.boilingthefrog.co.uk
i read it as the sonar suite rather than than FREMM's
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Re-reading it I suspect (hope) that you are right.

Wills
www.boilingthefrog.co.uk
I am sure you are right. IMO, the contract for three air warfare destroyers is set in stone and will not be affected by the White Paper. What might be a casualty is the hoped for fourth ship which both political parties seemed to support prior to the election. I also see little threat to the two LHDs but a third ship seems less likely, IMO. There is still a requirement for a third ship for the amphibious force for the sealift role but I suspect that cheaper options than a third LHD might be recommended. A pity as a 3rd LHD would mean that two would usually be available for operations, whereas with only two there will be occasions when only one will be available for deployment.

Tas
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Stuart leaves for the Gulf

With a full loadout of Harpoon missiles, Seahawk helo embarked and Mini Typhoon in place, HMAS Stuart departed on Monday for her second deployment to the Gulf.

HMAS Stuart farewelled

31 March - A large gathering of family and friends have bid a fond farewell to the Royal Australian Navy Anzac-class frigate HMAS Stuart and her ship's company of 185 men and women as she departs for a six-month deployment to the Middle East Area of Operation.


The Minister for Defence, the Hon. Joel Fitzgibbon MP, led the farewell in a traditional ceremony at Fleet Base East in Sydney and congratulated the ship's Commanding Officer, Commander Nick Woodley, for his ship’s crew’s comprehensive and rigorous training program in preparation for the task.

“Stuart is well-prepared and mission-ready for the important job before them. I congratulate the ship’s company for their commitment in building upon the outstanding reputation of the Australian Defence Force in the Middle East,” Mr Fitzgibbon said.

“I would like to thank the families and friends of the personnel deploying to the Gulf for their ongoing support and wish those deployed on Operation Catalyst continued success and ongoing safety,” he said.

Stuart will be stationed in the Gulf as part of Operation Catalyst, Australia’s commitment to the reconstruction and rehabilitation of Iraq until late-2008. The frigate will contribute to the protection of Iraqi oil platforms, security boardings of all vessels proceeding to the platforms and training of the Iraqi Navy, all of which are essential to the reconstruction and rehabilitation of Iraq.

This will be the second time that Stuart has been deployed to the Gulf, with the frigate’s departure marking the Navy’s 18th rotation since September 2001. HMAS Stuart will replace HMAS Arunta, due to return to Fleet Base West in April.
http://www.defence.gov.au/DefenceBlog/2008/0331_0406.htm#Stuart

I've downloaded a lo res image. For a selection of this and other hi res images go to:

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2008/Apr/20080401/index.htm


Tas
 

Trackmaster

Member
Trackmaster

Looking at the low res shot, all I can say is I would not like to be on the bridge if they let a Harpoon off.

Certainly get you blinking for a while
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Nation's 'noisy' subs actually quiet killers

To paraphrase my comments on T5C, "Its a damn shame that they (broadsheet defence journalists) didn't listen to what has been repeatedly said by some of us over the last 7 years and had to wait until they read it in a book..."



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Nation's 'noisy' subs actually quiet killers
Patrick Walters | April 05, 2008

It'S 30 years since the Royal Australian Navy first embarked on what was to become by far the most audacious and riskiest defence industry project undertaken in Australia.

In 2008, Australians are yet to fully appreciate the strategic significance of the Collins class submarine project and how it revolutionised the country's naval shipbuilding sector, kick-starting the local defence industry.

Even with the benefit of hindsight, it still seems incredible that the Hawke Labor government in 1987 took the plunge and approved the construction in Australia of a wholly new class of six submarines, a decision that astonished our close allies.

In doing so they ignored the considered advice of senior defence bureaucrats, allied naval chiefs and leading Australian industry chief executives that a local build posed far too many risks and should not be attempted.

From the start, the project stirred controversy, beginning with the choice of the Swedish company, Kockums, as the submarine designer, and Adelaide as the construction site. The successes and failures of the Collins saga embodied many of the problems faced by Australian industry in the 1990s as it struggled to adjust to a more open, dynamic global economy. In their definitive study of the Collins class submarine project, to be launched by Kim Beazley next week, Peter Yule and Derek Woolner explode popular myths about what are now widely agreed to be the most lethal conventional submarines in the world.

The first is that the Collins class was a budget fiasco costing the taxpayer billions more than budgeted. When judged against a string of other major Australian defence industry projects, including the hapless Seasprite helicopters, the submarines are actually a standout.

As the authors note, the Collins class were built to within 4 per cent of the original contract price after allowing for inflation. When the extra money for fixing all the problems identified in the late 1990s is added, the project came within 20 per cent of the original 1986 $3.9 billion contract.

Another myth is that the Collins were delivered years late, long after the original delivery schedule. The average delay turned out to be only 26 months, a formidable achievement for a new class of submarine. The Collins project stacks up extraordinarily well when compared with submarine-building disasters in the US and Britain over the past 20 years.

A further popular misconception is that the Collins boats are as "noisy as a rock band". As Woolner told Inquirer this week, there was no evidence for that oft-repeated refrain. The early boats did have some noise problems, partly due to propeller cavitation problems which, thanks to the Defence Science and Technology Organisation, have been rectified. Now they are acknowledged as being exceptionally quiet.

The original decision to build all six submarines in Australia was a huge leap of faith. That it happened at all was due principally to the crusading zeal of three men: Australian engineers Hans Ohff and John White, and a doggedly determined submariner, Graham White, the first head of the navy's new submarine project team in the early 1980s.

The pugnacious, mercurial, German-born Ohff, together with White, one of Australia's truly gifted industrial visionaries, stumped the country, convincing first the RAN and then sceptical state and federal politicians and local industry, that it could be done.

White and Ohff ran the losing German IKL-HDW bid for the new submarines but they both later went on to make enduring contributions to naval shipbuilding, Ohff returning in the '90s to manage ASC, the Collins constructor in Adelaide, and White running the highly successful Anzac frigate project at Tenix's Williamstown dockyard.

Woolner told Inquirer this week that nobody involved in the Collins project at the start fully comprehended how difficult the whole thing would be, from the design phase to engineering and construction, from project and consortium management to hugely complex systems-integration tasks led by the much-troubled combat system.

Right at the start, Swedish welding of the bow section of the first submarine turned out to be a major issue. Leading-edge research, including painstaking steel-alloy analysis led by DSTO, eventually solved the problem. Long-running tests on the subsequent Australian-made hull section welds have not revealed a single flaw. DSTO's scientific expertise proved fundamental to the overall success of the Collins project, including the Australian-designed and manufactured anechoic tiles that cover the external casing of the submarines.

The original combat system supplied by US company Rockwell never worked and had to be junked. Mooted solutions generated bitter divisions within the navy and the Defence Department and led to intense political debate inside the Howard government about the future of the project, with several ministers asking why it should not be scrapped altogether.

In 2001 the Howard government and then navy chief David Shackleton overturned the navy's recommendation that the German STN Atlas combat system be fitted to the Collins class.

In a strategic policy shift, the government turned to the US for help and a navy-to-navy agreement signed on September 10, 2001, opened an unprecedented era of bilateral co-operation.

The US partnership has since helped solve a range of complex technical issues affecting the performance of the boats.

Yule and Woolner stress the RAN and the Defence Department were slow to adjust to the reality that they, rather than a foreign shipyard, were now responsible for the submarines.

Adelaide-based ASC, 100 per cent government-owned, is now gearing up to build the $8 billion air warfare destroyers, a task that could not have been attempted without the Collins experience. They are also the designated design authority for the Collins class boats, taking over that role from Kockums five years ago after the government acquired the Swedish firm's share of ASC. ASC hopes to design and build a new class of submarines for the RAN.

Woolner believes that, even with the experience of the Collins build, it will still be a high-risk endeavour.

"The next submarine should be a sensible extrapolation of the one that went before," he warns.

"You start off with your existing design and add areas where there hasbeen considerable technological improvement. If you build on what is already there, I think you can make a success of it."

The Collins Submarine Story - Steel Spies and Spin, by Peter Yule and Derek Woolner (Cambridge University Press), $59.95.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Hi guys

Reading the Sydney Sunday telegraph today, apparently Mr. Mcphedran wrote a piece on the HMAS Rankin about major power failure and could not dive in the telegraph on 30/3
I missed the story about it and a search on the net could find no trace of the story did any one see it by chance?

There is a letter of reply to the Sunday telegraph by Commodore S.T.Cullen.AM as below,this was taken from the sunday telegraph april 6 2008 ,i tried to scan and past but it would not work

DUE DILIGENCE TAKES A DIVE

I STRONGLY reject the inaccuracies In Ian mcphedrans article “battery failure plagues dud sub{st,30/3}
The navy takes exception to the false claims made by mcphedran and the lake of balance and factual accuracy in his reporting. This type of reporting reflects poorly on the credibility of your newspaper.
Central to the article was the assertion that HMAS Rankin suffered a major power failure at sea and was forced to cross the Tasman Sea on the surface after her battery malfunctioned. Both these claims are false.
HMAS Rankin returned to Australia as programmed and conducted a port visit to Melbourne. She did not endure a slow and uncomfortable 2000km voyage on the surface.
As stated to mcphedran in response to his questions,HMAS Rankin completed a successful deployment to New Zealand as programmed, Rankin proceeded and dived for the bulk of her recent deployment, without any limitations due to her battery.
The navy has been completely open about the fact that Rankin’s main storage battery is at the end of its effective life and is due for replacement. This will be replaced as scheduled<during her planned maintenance activity in Adelaide.
As the navy indicated to mcphedran,the battery currently installed in Rankin has no design flaw.
In my view mcphedrans report is misleading and does not reflect the due diligence expected when reporting on national defense issues .

COMMODERE S.T. CULLEN. AM
Acting commander, Australian fleet


Sorry I had to do this way but I could not copy and past
Did any one see the article that lead to this letter to the telegraph

Regards
tom
 
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