2 of the Helsinkis bought by Croatia?

[Ragusian]

Been reading about this on a croatian forum and in newspapers, and now noticed that it was also implemented in the wiki pages on both the Helsinki class and croatian navy.

It says that they were bought(secretly, might I add) for 6 million euros(each or both, don't know) as a part of the Patria AMV purchase, and that the crews are already being trained on them(?). The ships should be in Croatia by summer...

Anybody knows anything about this? I haven't been able to find any credible sources besides wiki and newspapers...

I guess this means no Gotheborgs even if Croatia decides on Gripen. The ships will be used to fill the gap untill the arrival of bigger corvettes(new specs call for a class of 4-5 ships of between 90 and 120 meters)

To be honest, I find this story rather fishy, although the article stated that the croatian MOD is not denying the story..

 

[Jon K]

Been reading about this on a croatian forum and in newspapers, and now noticed that it was also implemented in the wiki pages on both the Helsinki class and croatian navy.

Could you give url's to said newspaper articles?

 

[Ragusian]

Unfortunately, no, they're not yet posted on the newspaper's web pages. I'll try to get a scan...

One thing to ask... Are they(helsinkis) even suited to operations in hot climates and seas? The Adriatic is very different to Baltic sea in temperatures and salinity...

 

[Jon K]

One thing to ask... Are they(helsinkis) even suited to operations in hot climates and seas? The Adriatic is very different to Baltic sea in temperatures and salinity...

All four have been decommissioned, there were plans to convert two into patrol boats but fortunately for the Finnish Navy this was cancelled. They are old ships, not particularly seaworthy but suitable for inshore operations lasting for about 72 hours.

Why Croatia would want such narrow role FAC's, or a navy beyond perhaps MCM duties and EEZ patrolling at all, is beyond my imagination, but if this sale lowers my taxes it's ok for me!

 

[Ragusian]

Why Croatia would want such narrow role FAC's, or a navy beyond perhaps MCM duties and EEZ patrolling at all, is beyond my imagination, but if this sale lowers my taxes it's ok for me!

I'm wondering too, but I guess 6 million euros won't lower your taxes much:

They are old ships, not particularly seaworthy but suitable for inshore operations lasting for about 72 hours.

Just 72 hours? That's not good at all. Why would our navy buy something like that is beyond my reasoning. If they can't do long patrols, they are no good for HRM/Coast guard. We already have 3 gas-guzzling ships which pretty much don't do anything, why would we need more?

 

[Totoro]

just what is a patrol out in the sea good for, anyway? Such a ship can spot other ships perhaps 20 km out, at most. Croatian coast is several hundred kms long, no even counting the 'depth', with all the islands and so on. Running into a smuggler, illegal fisherman, etc woudl be a matter of chance. As for the argument of faster reaction time upon interception request - that is very dubious, as one can never know where the incoming boats might come from. Unless one has a fleet big enough to keep 15 boats along the coastline, 24/7, covering the whole thing - it's pointless. Of course, having such a fleet would also be pointless on its own, due to the cost. Leave the patrolling to airborne platforms. At least in this day any age one doesn't have to get to 100 m away from the target in order to identify it.

3 gas guzzling ships we have are not suited for coast patrol anyway. Helsinki class ships, without arms do seem to be a little bit better suited, as they'd have more room for small boats, police squad, etc.

 

[contedicavour]

Guys, if the Helsinki-s replace old Rade Koncar and Osa I patrol ships, then the deal is good. Looking at the price tag, the deal is even VERY good...

Besides, if you look closely at the map of the Dalmatian coastline, you'll see tens of islands from which the Helsinkis can operate.

cheers

PS : the Adriatic is certainly hotter than the Baltic, but we aren't talking about the Persian Gulf either. Ships can operate without air conditioning for instance even in summertime.

 

[Gollevainen]

How much there is RBS-15 currently left in Croatia?
If we assume that there is sufficent ammount, Helsinki class could be rearmed back to their orginal component, and by thus Croatia could use them in their orginal role, as a missile FAC.
As someone allready pointed out, the Croatian coastline has similar tactical advantages that Finnish coastline has and thus the FAC in its purest form is still feasible figthing unit under such conditions.
Has someone directly mentioned, that Croatia will use them as offshore patrol boats?


PS. And if I recall the AMV deal was similar like this one, Not a hint in our or other western news source untill the vehicles were almoust delivered.
PSS. If they do indeed enter under Croatian flag, would the native militaryfan lot spam me with lot of pictures that I can modify the shipbucket image of Croatian navy? Thanks in advance.

 

[Jon K]

As someone allready pointed out, the Croatian coastline has similar tactical advantages that Finnish coastline has and thus the FAC in its purest form is still feasible figthing unit under such conditions.

There's just two questions: First, against what threat would the FAC's firing heavy SSM's be of any use? Is Italy invading? Second, Croatia is a small country and Adriatic is a narrow strip of sea. Putting SSM's on FAC's won't offer any advantage over land based missiles. But again, if Croatia is willing to pay any money at all for these 22 and 23 year old small, cramped, uncomfortable narrow-role FAC's as a Finnish taxpayer I'm glad.

Wiki-page seems to be a fanboy product, AFAIK, Helsinki does not have a towed array.

 

[contedicavour]

There's just two questions: First, against what threat would the FAC's firing heavy SSM's be of any use? Is Italy invading? Second, Croatia is a small country and Adriatic is a narrow strip of sea. Putting SSM's on FAC's won't offer any advantage over land based missiles. But again, if Croatia is willing to pay any money at all for these 22 and 23 year old small, cramped, uncomfortable narrow-role FAC's as a Finnish taxpayer I'm glad.

Wiki-page seems to be a fanboy product, AFAIK, Helsinki does not have a towed array.

The Croatian coastline is very very long with all those islands, you would need a huge amount of fixed or truck-based SSMs to provide some cover. Having the SSMs on a highly mobile FAC still makes more sense.
We aren't of course going to do anything against Croatia, but still we have a massive fleet equipped with SSMs and a lot of helos with Marte Mk2, so if Croatia can get their hands on cheap FAC(M)s then it sort of makes sense as a temporary measure before some real corvettes are procured.
Regarding the towed array sonar, IIRC even Jane's reports some sort of small towed array designed for coastal ASW and potentialy for intercepting mines. Probably a crude system which is not comparable to big FFGs' towed arrays, still useful in low depth closed seas. When I'll be back in Paris I'll check under my Jane's 06/07 Fighting Ships edition.

cheers

 

[Jon K]

We aren't of course going to do anything against Croatia, but still we have a massive fleet equipped with SSMs and a lot of helos with Marte Mk2, so if Croatia can get their hands on cheap FAC(M)s then it sort of makes sense as a temporary measure before some real corvettes are procured.

Well, Italian Navy might be also questioned about procurement sense, but that's a different issue. Helsinki's won't cut for corvette duties as their seakeeping qualities are very bad.

Regarding the towed array sonar, IIRC even Jane's reports some sort of small towed array designed for coastal ASW and potentialy for intercepting mines. Probably a crude system which is not comparable to big FFGs' towed arrays, still useful in low depth closed seas. When I'll be back in Paris I'll check under my Jane's 06/07 Fighting Ships edition.

The sonar was supposed to be put on board in a refit which was cancelled. Sonac PTA's are deployed onboard Rauma's (or some of them) and patrol vessels Kiisla and Kurki.

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/juws/juws0091.html

 

[contedicavour]

Well, Italian Navy might be also questioned about procurement sense, but that's a different issue. Helsinki's won't cut for corvette duties as their seakeeping qualities are very bad.



The sonar was supposed to be put on board in a refit which was cancelled. Sonac PTA's are deployed onboard Rauma's (or some of them) and patrol vessels Kiisla and Kurki.

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/juws/juws0091.html

Well you do with what you can pay for... besides you don't need good seakeeping qualities for patrolling from Pula to Dubrovnik, the Northern half of the Adriatic being relatively calm. Ideally they'd need large OPVHs so that they could also be used for UN missions overseas and the like, but for the moment you can't find anything cheaper than the Helsinkis for 6 mn euro...

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

How much there is RBS-15 currently left in Croatia?
If we assume that there is sufficent ammount, Helsinki class could be rearmed back to their orginal component, and by thus Croatia could use them in their orginal role, as a missile FAC.
As someone allready pointed out, the Croatian coastline has similar tactical advantages that Finnish coastline has and thus the FAC in its purest form is still feasible figthing unit under such conditions.
Has someone directly mentioned, that Croatia will use them as offshore patrol boats?


PS. And if I recall the AMV deal was similar like this one, Not a hint in our or other western news source untill the vehicles were almoust delivered.
PSS. If they do indeed enter under Croatian flag, would the native militaryfan lot spam me with lot of pictures that I can modify the shipbucket image of Croatian navy? Thanks in advance.

There's currently 47 RBS-15 missiles in Croatian inventory(that number is official), but of those 47, 26 is planed to be upgraded and used actively in service. The rest should be scraped, but now I wonder whether they'll change that decision if they plan to operate 5 FAC(M)s.
I'll gladly provide some images when and if they arrive under croatian flag

 

[Gollevainen]

There's just two questions: First, against what threat would the FAC's firing heavy SSM's be of any use? Is Italy invading? Second, Croatia is a small country and Adriatic is a narrow strip of sea. Putting SSM's on FAC's won't offer any advantage over land based missiles. But again, if Croatia is willing to pay any money at all for these 22 and 23 year old small, cramped, uncomfortable narrow-role FAC's as a Finnish taxpayer I'm glad.

Wiki-page seems to be a fanboy product, AFAIK, Helsinki does not have a towed array.

Well In my mind there comes lot of possible scennarios, One migth even imagine Russian navy patrolling in adriatic while its ally Serbia trye to crush Croatian land forces in some final Krajina smackdown event Defence should never focus on one day's sitution expecially in area where there are lots of burried hatred.
In naval matters FACs main feature, cheapness and low-penis-contest status comes in handy expecially when you want to keep some surface strike power without provocating other powers and your own taxpayers whit extensive naval build up.

And what comes to sea based missile vs. land based missiles, It all comes down into flexibility and mobility. Adriatic sea is narrow, yeas If your world consist only east and west, but in other dircetions the Croatian coast line is huge. Transporting missile-trucks requires logistical burden that has to travell alongside with them, and when operating in the mountainous and island pierced region, you suddenly create too much tactical bottle-necks when ferries and bridges comes your only possible way to escape from enemys retaliation. FAC doesent have this disadvantage, and its logistical support (base or mother ship) isen't tied to travell imideatly along side the actual firing unit. FAC doesent need engineering vehicles, pontoons or LCAs to assure its tactical mobility in high-thread enverioment.

Amd what comes to Helsinki, they are as uncofortable and narrow-role than anything in their size category, Yet superior to anything Croatian navy currently posess (assuming the RBS-15 capacity of Rade Concars and Peter Kresimir class could be rewired to them).

 

[Hande]

The sonar was supposed to be put on board in a refit which was cancelled. Sonac PTA's are deployed onboard Rauma's (or some of them) and patrol vessels Kiisla and Kurki.

This is incorrect. Raumas have a Simrad Toadfish and the Kiislas a Thomson-CSF made VDS. The Helsinki-class FAC:s have routinely carried a Sonac PTA for years.

 

[Stimpy75]

sry but i got a question
the Helsinki Class FAC,aren´t these with the 57mm main gun,2 2x23 mm gun and 8 RBS missiles equipped?
because i ´ve read in one of the military technology magazine, that these vessels were sold to egypt,all four of them!
it was written in an analysis of the current arabian navies and a picture of it was shown in the egypt navy chapter

 

[Hande]

sry but i got a question
the Helsinki Class FAC,aren´t these with the 57mm main gun,2 2x23 mm gun and 8 RBS missiles equipped?
because i ´ve read in one of the military technology magazine, that these vessels were sold to egypt,all four of them!
it was written in an analysis of the current arabian navies and a picture of it was shown in the egypt navy chapter

Actually they´ve lately been equipped with the guns you mentioned, 3 or 6 SSM and the Sonac PTA. Egypt bought the older Osa 2 missile boats which served their last years as fast minelayers with their missiles removed.

 

[Gollevainen]

Helsinki class have always featured the 57mm bofors mk1 and 23mm SAKO guns. And they were not sold to Egypt...

You might confuse the gun-change to the Hamina class, where the name ship orginally featured Bofors 40mm but it was later replaced with the 57mm Mk3.

 

[Hande]

You might confuse the gun-change to the Hamina class, where the name ship orginally featured Bofors 40mm but it was later replaced with the 57mm Mk3.

What gun-change?, confusing how?, who?

 

[Gollevainen]

Well weren't you saying they´ve lately been equipped with the guns you mentioned??

But the Helsinki class had always featured the 57mm and the 23mm from the start. (which the latters however was changed to new turret models which could launch the Mistral SAM as well)

Between Helsinki and Hamina class there was a Rauma class which was slightly smaller boat and thus featured smaller 40mm gun. As the current Hamina class was derivated from the later it orginally had 40mm gun solely, but was later one substituted with the new generation 57mm gun.