GAO report card on F-35 has been released!

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Its that time of the year again!

And well, it could always be worse; it could be the report on the U.S. Army Future Combat System (FCS) which, after reading that, makes the JSF program look pretty darn good.

Yes there are problems, and yes the "every complex defense program has problems" saying can be applied here. For example we all know costs are rising on the program, however that is a cause of multiple effect and not just program management. The JSF program has little control over the whims of the U.S. government funding which is more of a reactionary strategy as opposed to long range planning.

We already know that there are critics of reducing the amount of test airframes for the System Demonstration and Development (SDD) phase now in progress. This was an effort to reduce operating costs on work done and work yet to do on SDD. Here GAO says that this kind of cost control strategy doesn't do anything to help identify the root cause of cost growth.

Since last year’s GAO report, the JSF program office estimates that total acquisition costs increased by more than $23 billion, primarily because of higher estimated procurement costs. Here too a buck doesn't buy what it used to thanks to a falling dollar. Expect this to get worse no matter how efficient the program becomes.

Quoting the report: "Cost and schedule pressures are mounting. Two-thirds of budgeted funding for JSF development has been spent, but only about one-half of the work has been completed. The contractor is on its third, soon to be fourth, manufacturing schedule, but test aircraft in manufacturing are still behind, the continuing impacts of late designs, delayed delivery of parts, and manufacturing inefficiencies."

The report also goes on to say that: "Three independent defense offices separately concluded that program cost estimates are understated by as much as $38 billion and that the development schedule is likely to slip from 12 to 27 months."

Revelations in the report? If there is a dead cat thrown into the room for everyone to look at in surprise it is the claim by the GAO that: "Further, expected cost per flight hour now exceeds that of the F-16 legacy fighter, one of the aircraft it is intended to replace." If true, this may effect customer perception of one of the big sales pitches of the F-35 by Lockheed Martin; that the jet is cheaper to operate than a legacy F-16.

No matter what the cost, the report recommends that the two-engine vendor thing is the way to go. Good advice considering the latest engine problems.

GAO doesn't have any confidence in the ability of the program to estimate costs.

There is more, but the report ends with the usual cautionary tone saying we should be good for goodness sake. Which I guess given what is at stake is great advice. Expect all parties concerned to agree and disagree with the report which is nothing new.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If you lift an article straight from a website, in this case F-16.net, it's usually polite to quote the source of that article! :mad:
 

Sea Toby

New Member
And of course $23 billion sounds much worse than $16 billion. GAO has included the $7 billion for another jet engine development which Lockheed Martin and the USAF have already dropped to save costs. While the parts to the different aircraft models has declined in similarity, the goal of 60 percent commodity with the A and B is being met, the C naval version having the wing enlargement has reduced the commodity figure to 40 percent. Never-the-less the key cockpit avionics, and main jet engine similarity for the three types continues. Of course, this difference could be settled with the USAF buying naval versions of the plane. The Navy is going to always want better lower speed performance around aircraft carriers.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
..the GAO said costs have gone up by $23 billion since last year alone.
Close to $300 billion is needed to acquire 2,458 aircraft for the three services and another $650 billion will be needed to operate and maintain the fighters that are expected to be flying well into the 21st century, the report says.
Operating costs, projected at $346 billion just a few years ago, have been driven upward by changes in repair plans, revised costs for depot maintenance, higher fuel costs and increased fuel consumption.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/11/national/w154215D32.DTL
And there is a new, sixth-generation F-18 against JSF. IMO, although they could be good for USAF/MC., I think the USN should not buy F-35s and stick with the F-18s untill something better comes along.
 

Red

New Member
Deja Vu? It might sound simplistic. What matters is the eventual cost per plane each of the potential F35 will pay.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
And there is a new, sixth-generation F-18 against JSF. IMO, although they could be good for USAF/MC., I think the USN should not buy F-35s and stick with the F-18s untill something better comes along.
It doesn't say anything about a "sixth generation F-18", except in the headline. The first par of that article reads...
Boeing is touting an even newer version of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that paired with an advanced sixth-generation fighter that -- with a combat radius of more than 1,000-miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars come 2024 -- could give customers a better package of capabilities than buying Lockheed Martin's combination of the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Bloody headline writers! :type
 

F-15 Eagle

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  • #10
And there is a new, sixth-generation F-18 against JSF. IMO, although they could be good for USAF/MC., I think the USN should not buy F-35s and stick with the F-18s untill something better comes along.
Wait what????

Something is not making sense here. How is a F-18 considered a 6th generation fighter if it is only a 4th generation and the F-35 is a 5th generation. Plus the F-35 is way way better than the F-18A-d. The F-18 A-D wont even last until 2024 anyway, just look at whats happening to the F-15s...its not a very good idea.

Thats obviously not a very good article and its not an official article ether, especially if its from Boeing and the F-35 is a LM program, and the Pentagon and Congress don't want to drop the F-35c ether. The Navy is going to stick with the F-35 because there is nothing better than it right now. The F-35 has staelth, more range and a bigger payload and the program is too far ahead with problems facing our current fighter fleet that is not a realistic option ether to just cancel the F-35C.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
No, they mean F-18E/F, not the earlier models. The F-35 may have delays and bugs to work out for a long time, and yet to have prove itself in the real world, while F-18E/F is already flying missions, whatever "generation" they are! They can be cont. upgraded like their predecessors.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Wait what????

Something is not making sense here. How is a F-18 considered a 6th generation fighter if it is only a 4th generation and the F-35 is a 5th generation. Plus the F-35 is way way better than the F-18A-d. The F-18 A-D wont even last until 2024 anyway, just look at whats happening to the F-15s...its not a very good idea.

Thats obviously not a very good article and its not an official article ether, especially if its from Boeing and the F-35 is a LM program, and the Pentagon and Congress don't want to drop the F-35c ether. The Navy is going to stick with the F-35 because there is nothing better than it right now. The F-35 has staelth, more range and a bigger payload and the program is too far ahead with problems facing our current fighter fleet that is not a realistic option ether to just cancel the F-35C.
Read the article again.

They NEVER said the F/A-18E/F is a Sixth generation fighter. They said it would operate WITH a Sixth generation fighter.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Wait what????

Something is not making sense here. How is a F-18 considered a 6th generation fighter if it is only a 4th generation and the F-35 is a 5th generation. Plus the F-35 is way way better than the F-18A-d. The F-18 A-D wont even last until 2024 anyway, just look at whats happening to the F-15s...its not a very good idea.

Thats obviously not a very good article and its not an official article ether, especially if its from Boeing and the F-35 is a LM program, and the Pentagon and Congress don't want to drop the F-35c ether. The Navy is going to stick with the F-35 because there is nothing better than it right now. The F-35 has staelth, more range and a bigger payload and the program is too far ahead with problems facing our current fighter fleet that is not a realistic option ether to just cancel the F-35C.

We were discussing this here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7458

See theres a whole thread on it.
 

F-15 Eagle

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The GAO said they will need $300 billion to build 2458 F-35s and $650 billion to operate and maintain the F-35 fleet throughout its 30 year life span. Thats close to $1 Trillion for the entire F-35 program!

Now is it just me or is that an awful lot of money to pay? Sure the F-35 is necessary but can't they cut down the cost somehow?
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
If they are lucky, and only if they would get more of them ordered, to bring the unit cost down. It may go the F-22 way, for all I know!
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
The GAO said they will need $300 billion to build 2458 F-35s and $650 billion to operate and maintain the F-35 fleet throughout its 30 year life span. Thats close to $1 Trillion for the entire F-35 program!

Now is it just me or is that an awful lot of money to pay? Sure the F-35 is necessary but can't they cut down the cost somehow?
$1 trillion over 40 years for 2400+ 5th gen fighters includeing all the R&D. The F-35 will make up the bulk of the USAF & USN, considering the capability it proides the US government and people $1 trillion over allmost half a century isnt all that bad IMO. Remember that alot of that acts as an economic stimulous becasue it is being spent locally, not to mention the likely 1000+ export fighters which will do the same. Considering the US spends allmost $1 trillion on defence every couple of years that doesn't seem too bad.
 

F-15 Eagle

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I have another article.

The Joint Strike Fighter program is facing $38 billion in cost overruns and could be delayed by more than two years, according to a government report urging defense planners to re-evaluate the program.
The delays could affect the Navy’s schedule for the carrier variant of the plane. The service is already facing a fighter-jet gap with F/A-18 Hornets projected to die out before they’re replaced by the JSF. Service officials say they plan on buying more F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets to bridge the gap.
The almost $1 trillion program — the largest in defense history — has already ballooned more than $23 billion during the past year of development because of changes in procurement costs, according to the Government Accountability Office’s March 11 report.
Additionally, three separate defense offices found that initial cost estimates for the program were understated by $38 billion and that development will be delayed by 12 months to as much as 27 months, the GAO said.
It’s a red flag warranting an independent, life-cycle cost-estimate review of the entire program, the GAO said. Such a review should come before a review already planned for 2013.
Shift from testing could create problems

Last year, program managers put into place a Mid-Course Risk Reduction Plan, since they feared almost-certain cost overruns in the plane’s development phase. That plan shifted money away from testing and toward management reserves, which cover expenses related to technical issues that can emerge in development — engineering drawings, production materials and labor, for example. But the decision to put that plan into place came with a consequence, the GAO said.
Moving the money increased the risk of not completing testing on time, and not finding design problems early enough to prevent them from becoming costly, the report states. Furthermore, the report says the plan did not take up the issue of why the cost overruns were occurring in the first place.
“Two-thirds of budgeted funding for JSF development has been spent, but only about one-half of the work has been completed,” the GAO reported.
Concerns such as these in early government assessments could spell trouble for the services counting on the aircraft in the long term, said Bob Work, a defense analyst for the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.
The JSF program’s reach across the services is wide. The fighter’s F-35A version, which will perform conventional takeoffs and landings, and the F-35C carrier variant are favored by the Air Force and Navy, respectively. The Marine Corps wants the F-35B short- takeoff/vertical-landing variant.
The Navy Department plans to buy 680 F-35s, which covers both Navy and Marine versions. The first operational Marine version is scheduled to join the fleet in 2012, and the first aircraft carrier version in 2015, Lockheed Martin spokesman John Smith said.
Smith said he didn’t have a Navy/Marine breakdown of the total 680 number, but Marine Maj. Eric Dent said the Corps plans to buy 420 aircraft.
Delay may be disaster for Corps

Delays with JSF delivery will exacerbate the problem of aging aircraft, Work said.
“How the JSF goes will really have an impact on all the services’ plans,” he said.
Furthermore, significant delays could threaten the Corps’ STOVL version, already under the gun because of disagreements among Navy and Marine leaders as to how it should be incorporated into the fleet, Work said.
“The Marine Corps has pretty much bet the farm on JSF,” Work said.
The magnitude of the JSF program prompted a congressional mandate that the GAO review its progress incrementally. The attention could be just beginning.
“Any hint of an overrun is just going to raise the level of scrutiny and interest,” Work said.
Despite the findings in the GAO audit — one of about a dozen assessments the program undergoes each year — the JSF program remains on target, countered a project spokesman.
Even if the total cost for the F-35 over its planned 35-year service life does adds up to $1 trillion, as the GAO report indicates, that’s still less than the total cost for operating all the varieties of aircraft it’s replacing, Smith said.
The F-35 Joint Program Office prepares an annual Selected Acquisition Report, which estimates the procurement cost, Smith said in an e-mail. The next report will be issued “in the near future,” he said.
“The bottom line is — and I’m not being flip about it — we have to take a step back and, if you remember our job is to produce all these things we described and do it in a responsible manner, this is one of the most cost-effective programs out there.”
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Reads pretty much like last year's report, and more than likely next year's report. Since it is a thirty year program, I am sure either aircraft numbers will be cut or Congress will invest more money. Unfortunately, no other NEW fighter-bomber aircraft program is underway from the Dept. of Defense. And despite GAO's concerns, and its attempt to settle matters, the aircraft is flying.

Keep in mind in my neighborhood schools are coming in over budget, hospitals are over budget, roads are over budget, airports are over budget, among others. Even the GAO is over budget.

Its difficult to build anything within a budget when transportation costs are skyrocketing because of the ever increasing costs of oil........

Lockheeds hopes to finish the testing process on time with the usage of more available aircraft after they build them, and before they are delivered to the armed forces. In my book that isn't much of a delay, although I will admit the program is falling a bit behind schedule. But it doesn't appear Lockheed is going to become a decade late as Kamen did with the Aussie's Seasprites.

I am sure whatever aircraft will fly a little bit longer.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sliding US dollar rates hit JSF programme
That's on top of regular cost overruns! By developing the JSF they hoped to big time, but in the final analysis it may come at the cost of decreased capability, as I wrote here.
I see that you've selectively ignored the response by the JSF Program Office that they have factored in currency fluctuations. In fact all programs we manage are factored against currency slide - we have to. This is necessary for any military development and build program as they all have foreign components and we factor in currency slippage against those foreign components. Its why we also have fallback manufacturing across different currency bases.

I'm curious as to what capability is being decreased when its already built in to the platform as a system.

Stop trolling.
 
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