The Royal Navy's future? S2C2 project news from Janes'
- Thread starter Musashi_kenshin
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Seems like the Danish Absalon-class would fit the bill, for C1 and C2, with minor modifications. At the same time, the Absalon-class have been built fast, and the cost has been very low, compared to the latest British-ships.
If UK would adobt the danish flex-systems, with weapons in containers, it's possible to save even more money, and get more ships.
If UK would adobt the danish flex-systems, with weapons in containers, it's possible to save even more money, and get more ships.
perfectgeneral
New Member
C1, C2 & C3
It's not very clear to me what kind of systems would be needed on a C2 and how they would differ from the C3 security role.
These will all be british designs. The Maritime Industrial Strategy calls for a steady drumbeat of work for strategic industries. That would include naval design I would think.
It's not very clear to me what kind of systems would be needed on a C2 and how they would differ from the C3 security role.
Musashi_kenshin
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- #44
I don't see how it possibly could be - they're support ships with a transport capability. The Royal Navy already has a sizeable amphibious aspect - it needs new warships that are fast and built for combat. The Absalon-class is nowhere near what it needs.
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contedicavour
New Member
I agree, if the Royal Navy goes for a hi-lo mix of large FFGs and corvettes, all need to be entirely dedicated to fast ASW/ASUW patrol without any other distraction such as carrying contingents for UN/NATO/EU peacekeeping missions.
cheers
Very good point contedicavour.
One of the real dangers with a design for the 'lo' part of a force mix is that people start adding weapons, sensors and other gear, until it ends up as a sophisticated, expensive vessel that can no longer be afforded in sufficient numbers.
We could learn from the design of ships like the WW2 Flower class corvette which was given the minimum size, speed and armament to do a specific job as an anti submarine convoy escort. Later in the war, when the speed, armament and size of German U boats had increased, the RN developed the River class frigate which was a little larger, faster and better armed, but still just sufficient for the specific task of A/S convoy escort. The result with both designs was that the RN was able to build ships quickly and in quantity.
Cheers
The Absalons also have a significant combat capability, but I agree. An LPH, two LPDs, 4 LSDs & half a dozen ro-ros is probably enough amphibious & transport ships. We don't need multi-purpose combat-cum-amphibious ships.
The Absalon-class is build for combat. It is called a supportship, but is actually a frigate with a transportcapability.
The danish navy has recently ordered three patrol frigates of similar design like the Absalon-class, but without the transportcapability.
http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/NavyNews/2006/0622_PatrolShips.htm
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Musashi_kenshin
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- #49
You haven't demonstrated why we need a hybrid-ship. We don't - we need pure escorts.
No, I haven't, because I don't think, that the RN needs Support and Command ships like the Absalon
The RN are of a much bigger scale than the Danish Navy, so the RN can afford to have more specialized ships.My information about the Absalon was purely informationally, so there are no misunderstandings about its roles as a transport-, commandship or frigate.
But I would stil think, that the Patrol Frigates ordered by the Danish Navy could be interesting for the RN, because of the reasons stated by KIJ. The Patrol Frigates are faster and do not have a transportdeck like the Absalon
Musashi_kenshin
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- #52
It usually helps if you read the first post in the thread before you ask questions like that.
Each of the new Danish Patrol Frigates is priced at around 160 million £, which is way less than the Type 45 for example (I heard 600 million £, but I don't know if that's correct ?). But the Patrol Frigates will be almost as capable in most areas, and even more capable in some areas (thanks to the 32-cell Mk41 VLS launcher, it can fire Tomahawks), than a Type 45, which makes them quite the bargain.
Think of the firepower, you could get, 3-4 times as many ships (even with a 64-cell VLS if needed), for the same price as the Type 45s, you would have 18-24 very capable frigates, and the Royal Navy would be back, greater than seen in a long time.
At the same time, the Absalons, which are very close the the Patrol Frigates, was made with almost no delays, which is quite impressive these days. Expect the same to happen with the Patrol Frigates.
Think of the firepower, you could get, 3-4 times as many ships (even with a 64-cell VLS if needed), for the same price as the Type 45s, you would have 18-24 very capable frigates, and the Royal Navy would be back, greater than seen in a long time.
At the same time, the Absalons, which are very close the the Patrol Frigates, was made with almost no delays, which is quite impressive these days. Expect the same to happen with the Patrol Frigates.
I believe that the price for the Patrol Frigates does not include all the weapons and equipment, but I agree, they are cheap compared to the Type 45. However, there are other factors, e.g. operating costs. Crew, maintenance, fuel . . . . Between them, these cost more than the ship, over its lifetime. You can't just take the purchase price & say "we can have twice as many because they cost half as much to buy".
BTW, having Mk 41 launchers does not necessarily mean you can fire Tomahawks. Mk 41 comes in self-defense length, equivalent to Sylver A43, capable of firing ESSM but not SM-2, tactical length, capable of firing SM-2 but not Tomahawk equivalent to Sylver A50, & strike-length, capable of firing Tomahawk, equivalent to Sylver A70. The price & weight goes up with each version. Are you sure the Patrol Frigates will have strike length?
What's so wrong with the F2000 small frigates the United Kingdom sold to Malaysia and Brunei? 200 million pounds vs. 600 million pounds for the Type 45. Add a ASW helicopter hangar if necessay. You want 10 more ships for ocean patrol, think less capable ships. Leave room in the plans for these ships to employ a minehunting modules, just replace the minehunters with these, save funds for buying a separate class of minehunters. Multi-role ships are the wave of the future. Add some GRP small diving support boats if you wish, just build them dirt cheap.
IIRC that's more or less what VT is offering for the C3 slot.
any takers on the C1/C2?
Musashi_kenshin
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- #59
They can't fire Tomohawks with the Mk-41 they are likely to use. Furthermore they are inferior in rather key areas such as radar, fire control, fleet/area-defence, range and growth for future technology to name a few.
If the UK had wanted a patrol frigate it could have made one for around £150 million, but it wanted a fleet-defence AAW destroyer - which is why the Type 45 costs a lot more.
well there are plenty of options for C1/C2 including a T45 hull for eatheir C1/C2 and a combination of an updated T23 [a superlative ASW boat] and something which could be like the FREMM class