weasel1962
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RMAF Future; need opinions
- Thread starter Ding
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Pakistan is a treaty ally. India is not. Is the Us comfortable about giving Aesas to Pakistan? hmm...It`s all about politics, strategic interests, etc. Friendship is one thing. Trust, security of technology and usefulness is another. Sorry, I simply do not see Malaysia faring very well here.Well, Malaysia probably will not become one of the ally but Malaysia has its unique attraction to the Americans. And Americans are also feeling comfortable to transfer tech to Malaysia as oppose to your claim. There are few examples, but one of the most solid one: before 95 Malaysia was being offered Hornet with latest radar, engine, self protect jammer and targeting pod.
The US was willing to offer the old hornets then because Singapore, Indonesia and the thais were operating similar systems in the F16s or in Singapore`s and Australia`s F18 case; far more advanced systems. It does not affect the strategic equation in the region.
Read DSCA`s official press releases. What is usually stated at the bottom of the press release when a proposed foriegn sale is made? Let me quote; "The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region."
Why do you think Malaysia only got 20 amraams after so long and only after Australia(first), Singapore and Thailand got them in the hundreds? And the current batch of Malaysian F18s can`t even fire amraams till 2011.
Would 18 sukhois with Pesas and 12-18 SHs with Aesas bother Thailand or Singapore, Australia or even Indonesia?
IMO, you won`t get good Aesas till countries in the region have sorted out thier airforces and these good Aesa radars will not strategically imperil US allies and strategic partners.
IMO. Get more sukhois. The most practical thing to do.
Flight International report from 2002. It has been more than a decade and Malaysia has yet to purchase the F18 SHs. More than a decade of on/off negotiations(one wonders why...). Im not hopeful it will come about anytime soon or in the near future.
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Malaysian Super Hornet buy is no closer despite US FMS notification
PAUL LEWIS / WASHINGTON DC
Malaysia remains some way off from finalising a deal for Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets and has yet to submit a letter of request to the US government. This is despite recent Department of Defense (DoD) notification to the US Congress of the possible foreign military sale (FMS). Kuala Lumpur confirms that one condition of a deal will be the trade-in of its eight F/A-18D Hornets.
The DoD's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) has notified Congress of a proposed $1.5 billion arms deal for Malaysia packaged around 18 two-seat F/A-18Fs. Malaysian defence minister Najib Tun Razak says the country is looking "very seriously" at acquiring the Super Hornet, as well as the Sukhoi Su-30MKM, but it is still in negotiations with the US Navy and Boeing.
Najib adds that details on the number of fighters and configuration have to be finalised. The DSCA notification covers 18 F/A-18Fs, whereas industry sources suggest the purchase could involve only 12 aircraft. "We tend to err on the high side in terms of quantity and dollar value to ensure we don't end up having to go back to Congress," says the DSCA.
It is planned to equip the aircraft with the same Raytheon APG-73 radar as on Malaysia's F/A-18Ds, although the APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will be available from 2005, around the time deliveries to Malaysia are due to start. The DSCA says the APG-73 is the only radar now available and any future switch to the AESA-design would require it being cleared for release to Malaysia.
Najib adds that the Malaysian air force will trade-in its F/A-18Ds as part of any Super Hornet deal. It is understood that at least four of the five-year-old Hornets are being offered to Switzerland, which is looking for additional F/A-18C/Ds for the reconnaissance role and to bolster its existing fleet.
The remaining fighters may be offered to the US Marine Corps, although it is unclear where funding for such a purchase would come from
SOURCE:Flight International
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Malaysian Super Hornet buy is no closer despite US FMS notification
PAUL LEWIS / WASHINGTON DC
Malaysia remains some way off from finalising a deal for Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets and has yet to submit a letter of request to the US government. This is despite recent Department of Defense (DoD) notification to the US Congress of the possible foreign military sale (FMS). Kuala Lumpur confirms that one condition of a deal will be the trade-in of its eight F/A-18D Hornets.
The DoD's Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) has notified Congress of a proposed $1.5 billion arms deal for Malaysia packaged around 18 two-seat F/A-18Fs. Malaysian defence minister Najib Tun Razak says the country is looking "very seriously" at acquiring the Super Hornet, as well as the Sukhoi Su-30MKM, but it is still in negotiations with the US Navy and Boeing.
Najib adds that details on the number of fighters and configuration have to be finalised. The DSCA notification covers 18 F/A-18Fs, whereas industry sources suggest the purchase could involve only 12 aircraft. "We tend to err on the high side in terms of quantity and dollar value to ensure we don't end up having to go back to Congress," says the DSCA.
It is planned to equip the aircraft with the same Raytheon APG-73 radar as on Malaysia's F/A-18Ds, although the APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will be available from 2005, around the time deliveries to Malaysia are due to start. The DSCA says the APG-73 is the only radar now available and any future switch to the AESA-design would require it being cleared for release to Malaysia.
Najib adds that the Malaysian air force will trade-in its F/A-18Ds as part of any Super Hornet deal. It is understood that at least four of the five-year-old Hornets are being offered to Switzerland, which is looking for additional F/A-18C/Ds for the reconnaissance role and to bolster its existing fleet.
The remaining fighters may be offered to the US Marine Corps, although it is unclear where funding for such a purchase would come from
SOURCE:Flight International
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Well, probably you choose to convince yourselves with myths. I know citizens from one of our neighbor tend to do so as if it will actually turn their fantasy into reality.Pakistan is a treaty ally. India is not. Is the Us comfortable about giving Aesas to Pakistan? hmm...It`s all about politics, strategic interests, etc. Friendship is one thing. Trust, security of technology and usefulness is another. Sorry, I simply do not see Malaysia faring very well here...
Since you bring up Pak-Indo matter, I will point out a basic mistake you made. A reminder if you are not aware that after just months the Pakistanis signed a contract to acquire Block 52+ Falcon with AMRAAM C-5 and AN/APG-68(V)9, the American slapped his ally by offering AESA APG-79 for the Indian MRCA bid. Pakistanis is also a good buddy of the Chinese, why wouldn't the Americans concern about the superb AN/APG-68(V)9? The American does not bother about the conflict between their allies (close friend) as long as it does not affect the American's strategy establishment. Got a picture of it?
Same goes to SEA. Malaysia as an ex-colonial of the Americans best ever buddy, had since its independence chose to be a neutral player of the world politic. Despite being a mild Islamic colored country, Malaysia has all the qualities to be a good friend of the American. A simple way to make friend is to send good will to a country. As the profit will only make jealousy become negligible, APG-79 is no more unreachable as the USAF/USMC continues to maintain a huge advantage in terms of individual or as a whole.
As of the news you quote later. Not to mention it is date back 2002 where APG-79 is a brand new asset to the USMC, why would a good business manager even bother to go through tedious process for a pre-approval on behalf of an "intend" which were not even supported by its government?
To, Ozzy Blizzard,
What if the American wants to expends its allies from 2 to 3 or even 4? Is there any reason why Malaysian is not attractive or attractless for the American to consolidate its strategy advantage on the region? Who is important in compare to its own Strategy establishment with other countries' feeling? How heavy the impact is for a miserable sqd of S. Hornet affects the balance of the region on behalf of the American's position. When one of them will maintain a 1 vs 3 power for the next 15 years even with the present asset and order, while another one went for a European supplier for the next gen asset? And why Malaysian cannot build themselves a Hi-Lo profile AF, as you already outlined even a short sighted S.Hornet + outdated ver. of JDAM has a huge attraction?
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I had no idea on the redesigning of the nose to fit the AESA, n the closed production of the Blk1 SH. If its so, then I guess you've hit the nail on the coffin on this matter. Considering the SH offer is still on the table for the MAF, there's no reason to believe that the AESA would not be offered to the MAF. But I know there are some of Mysia's neighbours down south would not like it.Current production Super Hornets are Block II's, fitted with APG-79 AESA as the standard fit.
Block I Supers with APG-73 are no longer in production. The Block II's feature a re-designed forward fuselage to accomodate the new AESA radar. Is Boeing likely to start up production of "old" forward fuselages and older model APG-73 radars to accomodate a likely order of only 18x aircraft, IF Malaysia were to opt for this aircraft?
Unlikely.
AS seen in post 1715# in the Indian Air Force thread:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6713&page=115
Boeing has offered the APG-79 to India as part of it's proposal for the MRCA program.
Boeing has sold APG-79 to Australia.
It has offered it to Switzerland, Brazil and Norway, as well as Japan, South Korea and Singapore.
If Malaysia requests and is allowed the Super Hornet aircraft today, it will come with APG-79.
Malaysia was cleared in 2002 to acquire the then state of the art Super Hornet, with ALR-67 (v3) digital radar warning receiver, IDECM EW suite and the best avionics available for the aircraft at the time. Given the competitiveness of modern fighter programs, offering anything less than a fully capable aircraft is going to be a non-starter I'm afraid. I can't see that SH without APG-79 is worth it.
Conspiracy theories don't matter much in the face of reality...
I think US policy is to not create an arms race or by the introduction of new and advanced weapon systemin a region. With Singapore getting their hands on AESA this does not apply anymore, hence AESA can be cleared for Mysia.
Also on the note of Pakistan, the reason why US will not sell AESA to Pakistan is because Pak is the worst ally that US could get. US will not risk selling AESA to Pak knowing that it will end up in the Clone manufacturing plants of China.
That risk is not there with the MAF.
That risk is not there with the MAF.
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But the Block II forward fuselage can and does accommodate the APG-73, & many F-18E were built in that configuration. It would not be necessary to re-start production of Block I forward fuselages to fit APG-73s. The USN plans to upgrade 135 F-18E currently fitted with APG-73 to APG-79 (AFAIK all those with the forward fuselage able to accept it), which could also provide a source of spare older model APG-73 radars & spares for them. I'm not saying this will happen, just pointing out that it is possible to supply an F-18E which is in some respects "old-spec" without having to wind back the production line.Current production Super Hornets are Block II's, fitted with APG-79 AESA as the standard fit.
Block I Supers with APG-73 are no longer in production. The Block II's feature a re-designed forward fuselage to accomodate the new AESA radar. Is Boeing likely to start up production of "old" forward fuselages and older model APG-73 radars to accomodate a likely order of only 18x aircraft, IF Malaysia were to opt for this aircraft?
Unlikely.
....
There no such thing as prevent arm race. Arm race is all the business starts.I think US policy is to not create an arms race or by the introduction of new and advanced weapon systemin a region. With Singapore getting their hands on AESA this does not apply anymore, hence AESA can be cleared for Mysia.
I got the same idea too, but by doing this way, the outcome will be costly, hence to make the deal incline to a worst position. probably AD take account of this?But the Block II forward fuselage can and does accommodate the APG-73, & many F-18E were built in that configuration. It would not be necessary to re-start production of Block I forward fuselages to fit APG-73s. The USN plans to upgrade 135 F-18E currently fitted with APG-73 to APG-79 (AFAIK all those with the forward fuselage able to accept it), which could also provide a source of spare older model APG-73 radars & spares for them. I'm not saying this will happen, just pointing out that it is possible to supply an F-18E which is in some respects "old-spec" without having to wind back the production line.
If trying to sell a SH without AESA is tough, US can forget sending a proposal if it's gonna use second hand parts from in use US F-18E model to get a deal. For an aircraft thats as expensive as the Hornets are, i dont think MAF will want to see it in its inventory this way.But the Block II forward fuselage can and does accommodate the APG-73, & many F-18E were built in that configuration. It would not be necessary to re-start production of Block I forward fuselages to fit APG-73s. The USN plans to upgrade 135 F-18E currently fitted with APG-73 to APG-79 (AFAIK all those with the forward fuselage able to accept it), which could also provide a source of spare older model APG-73 radars & spares for them. I'm not saying this will happen, just pointing out that it is possible to supply an F-18E which is in some respects "old-spec" without having to wind back the production line.
A
Aussie Digger
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I don't deny that the US restricts access to technology to some parties, JASSM to Finland being the most obvious. However it has shown an increasing willingness to export the majority of it's modern technology in recent years due to the competitiveness of foreign manufacturers. Would Malaysia get a "USN" spec APG-79, probably not, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't get an extremely capable aircraft and radar system.Malaysia is not a tier one alliy, and all of those nations are or are being wooed. The US denieing FMS of a single wepons system for various reasons is hardly a conspircay theory. What about JASSM to finland? APG 79 changes the game significantly in SEA and will to some extent displace two of the US's closest allies in the region. Therefore i'm schepitcal it will be aproved for sale in the next 10 years to the RMAF.
In any case even with AESA I dont think the RMAF should invest in annother western aircraft due to the unessisary logistcal complications.
I would suggest that Malaysia would probably not be interested in the Super Hornet without this radar and therefore the proposal to supply Malaysia would feature a radar system that is matched very precisely to the requirements issued. Whether that is the full extent of the capability possible, is another question entirely...
The existing Hornets were to be traded in on new Supers under the original deal, so they aren't exactly investing in another Western aircraft, simply a replacement for an existing one.
Despite your comments, the Chief of RMAF and the Malaysian Government ARE keen to maintain a disparate fleet of combat aircraft to circumvent any "supply" issues and are prepared to "wear" the logistical expense of doing so. There is an interview from late 2006 with the Chief of RMAF earlier in this thread that makes this very point.
He also states that the Super Hornet was their preferred aircraft for their next "5 year plan" and only IF they were unable to get it, would they seek additional Sukhois.
Are you aware that Raytheon is about to announce a program to market the APG-79 to existing F/A-18A/B/C/D users and that even USMC may be interested in acquiring it?
I wouldn't be quite so certain about the non-exportability of that particular radar. Singapore and Saudi Arabia have been approved for the APG-63 (v3) AESA (which uses APG-79 technology), UAE has been approved (for some time) for the APG-80 AESA and APG-79 equipped F/A-18's have been offered to Singapore, Japan, India, Switzerland and Brazil and obviously sold to Australia.
The AESA technology is the most obvious current advantage that US evolved teen series fighters have in the current fighter market. I'd be VERY surprised if the F/A-18E/F WITH APG-79 was not offered to Malaysia within the next few years, if a fighter request for proposal were to be asked for by Malaysia.
weasel1962
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Mig-35 update
Hi qwerty223
I know you are a Fulcrum fan as I am and came across this at Roy's. Not everything at Roy's web site is considered fact.
Date Posted 04 February 2008
Sokol Aircraft Plant to Build MiG-35
OAO Nizhniy Novgorod's Sokol aircraft plant (a Unified Aircraft Building Corporation enterprise) is getting ready to manufacture the new MiG-35 fighter, which RSK MiG has developed.
It is planned to market the airplane at the end of 2009 – start of 2010. Sokol plans to begin series production of Yak-130 airplanes in accordance with a Russian Federation defense ministry order at the end of 2008, Interfax-Region is reporting referring to the aircraft plant's general director, Mikhail Shibaev.
Source: 04.02.08, dp.RU
Link to source
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_feb1.html#07feb
Hi qwerty223
I know you are a Fulcrum fan as I am and came across this at Roy's. Not everything at Roy's web site is considered fact.
Date Posted 04 February 2008
Sokol Aircraft Plant to Build MiG-35
OAO Nizhniy Novgorod's Sokol aircraft plant (a Unified Aircraft Building Corporation enterprise) is getting ready to manufacture the new MiG-35 fighter, which RSK MiG has developed.
It is planned to market the airplane at the end of 2009 – start of 2010. Sokol plans to begin series production of Yak-130 airplanes in accordance with a Russian Federation defense ministry order at the end of 2008, Interfax-Region is reporting referring to the aircraft plant's general director, Mikhail Shibaev.
Source: 04.02.08, dp.RU
Link to source
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_feb1.html#07feb
Thanks!Hi qwerty223
I know you are a Fulcrum fan as I am and came across this at Roy's. Not everything at Roy's web site is considered fact.
Date Posted 04 February 2008
Sokol Aircraft Plant to Build MiG-35
OAO Nizhniy Novgorod's Sokol aircraft plant (a Unified Aircraft Building Corporation enterprise) is getting ready to manufacture the new MiG-35 fighter, which RSK MiG has developed.
It is planned to market the airplane at the end of 2009 – start of 2010. Sokol plans to begin series production of Yak-130 airplanes in accordance with a Russian Federation defense ministry order at the end of 2008, Interfax-Region is reporting referring to the aircraft plant's general director, Mikhail Shibaev.
Source: 04.02.08, dp.RU
Link to source
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_feb1.html#07feb
Probably a contract is getting close? no so sure.
weasel1962
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Thanks!
Probably a contract is getting close? no so sure.
Its probably because the Final Mig35 is different than the 1 displayed at MAKS visually. I got the pic, but this isnt the right thread.
Btw i'm more impressed by the scannig angles achievable by the IRBIS-E rather than the BARS. But i hope the RMAF will upgrade the BARS into AESA once that becomes available.
weasel1962
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