Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Abraham Gubler]

Australia is currently scheduled to receive 27 F-35s from LRIP production; comprising four in LRIP 5 (2013), eight in LRIP 6 (2014) and 15 in LRIP 7 (2015). Multi Year Procurement (MYP) full rate production is due to kick in after this during which the RAAF will receive a further 15 in 2016, 15 in 2017, and 15 in 2018.

This is my source for such things (from the F-35 Project Office):

"ANNEX A (APRIL 2007 REVISION) ESTIMATED JSF AIR VEHICLE PROCUREMENT QUANTITIES"

The estimated JSF Air Vehicle procurement quantities of the Participants are identified in Table A-1.
Table A-1
Participants’ Estimated JSF Air Vehicle Procurement Quantities
(Projected FY of Production Contract Definitization (approximately two years prior to delivery))

I've counted F-35s ordered in CY 2014 (2016 builds) as 'LRIP' while they are actually the first full rate production year. I have done so because the volume hasn't worked up to the sustained rate and their cost is very high. The percentage values are still of the same proportion for the formal LRIP.

Australia has 27% of F-35s from the formal LRIP. Italy has less than 10%, Netherlands ~20% (but they have two very early aircraft), UK ~8%, Canada, Norway, Denmark 0%.

So either way the figures are not good for Australia, we are spending big early which costs more and ups risk.

 

[the road runner]

Hey thanx Barra,Magoo and Ozzy Blizzard for the info on the F-111,Copp makes it sound as if we dont upgrade these aircraft,well the RAAF wont have any planes to do strike missions,interdiction and chain box kill.
Also regarding the RAAF using a 1 tier force,im a bit up in the air about what we should have.i.e. 100 JSF or a mix of 50 JSF+50 odd Super Bugs.
Both forces have there pros and cons but witch is the best?well i leave that to the senior members of this site to comment on,your understanding far exceeds mine.
Also an idea poped into my head(it dose this from time to time)as we could have written a joint proposal of information,in what direction the government should take on defence related matters.The government has called for submissions on this issue?
I know that there are alot of people in this forum who are well placed to share info on this topic.Would loved to have seen a DEFENCE TALK SUBMISSION on this topic
Thanx

MEEP MEEP

 

[Aussie Digger]

Hey thanx Barra,Magoo and Ozzy Blizzard for the info on the F-111,Copp makes it sound as if we dont upgrade these aircraft,well the RAAF wont have any planes to do strike missions,interdiction and chain box kill.
Also regarding the RAAF using a 1 tier force,im a bit up in the air about what we should have.i.e. 100 JSF or a mix of 50 JSF+50 odd Super Bugs.
Both forces have there pros and cons but witch is the best?well i leave that to the senior members of this site to comment on,your understanding far exceeds mine.
Also an idea poped into my head(it dose this from time to time)as we could have written a joint proposal of information,in what direction the government should take on defence related matters.The government has called for submissions on this issue?
I know that there are alot of people in this forum who are well placed to share info on this topic.Would loved to have seen a DEFENCE TALK SUBMISSION on this topic
Thanx

MEEP MEEP

I think you'll see that at least 1 member of the forum here, will be submitting a submission to the 2nd phase of the review. The first phase is a joke.

The SH will be confirmed, the F-111 will be retired. HUG and JSF will continue and we won't get any F-22's. Fitzgibbon simply wanted a "get out of gaol free card" so that he can explain that the critics views (ie: Air Power Australia) have been investigated...

This is reflected in the fact that the Clown Club have now turned their attention back to the Senate, after failing to get what they seek from the Executive...

 

[rossfrb_1]

I think you'll see that at least 1 member of the forum here, will be submitting a submission to the 2nd phase of the review. The first phase is a joke.

The SH will be confirmed, the F-111 will be retired. HUG and JSF will continue and we won't get any F-22's.
snip

By HUG are you including the CBR? I thought that 'they' were finding more things needed replacing than originally expected (and budgeted for).
And that the number of RAAF hornets proposed to be CBR'd was in a state of flux (up until recently anway).


rb

 

[Aussie Digger]

By HUG are you including the CBR? I thought that 'they' were finding more things needed replacing than originally expected (and budgeted for).
And that the number of RAAF hornets proposed to be CBR'd was in a state of flux (up until recently anway).


rb

Exactly how many legacy Hornets need to undergo the CBR process is still being decided I think. I've seen publicly announced that up to 49x platforms are to be done, however RAAF has announced since that it is reconsidering the number, considering the industry issues (ie: lack of capacity and will to do it) surrounding the CBR process.

CBR is a part of the HUG, so yes I was including it, however other activities including an internal self protection jammer, BOL counter measures dispenser, and other EW and weapons integration tasks are ongoing (JASSM for instance) so HUG program is still a fair way from completion and I believe it will be continuing even in the "worst" case scenario.

Even if APA's most fevered dreams became reality and we decided upon an Uber Pig/F-111 combo (and could get it, afford it etc) a purchase of F-22's tomorrow would still take 3-5 years to arrive and another 2-3 years to achieve FOC. The Uber Pig upgrade (UPU) would take years to become operational and would result in significantly reduced airframe availability for operational activities.

The Hornet would have to carry the majority of RAAF's combat capability in that "gap" anyway...

 

[t68]

This is reflected in the fact that the Clown Club have now turned their attention back to the Senate, after failing to get what they seek from the Executive...

Pardon my ignorance but who exactly is the clown club .Copp and co or the broadsheets?

Regards
Tom

 

[Aussie Digger]

Pardon my ignorance but who exactly is the clown club .Copp and co or the broadsheets?

Regards
Tom

Air power Australia and it's associates. Basically all those who are pushing the F-111/F-22 barrow, but with a specific agenda in mind that has nothing to do with what is actually best for Australia.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Air power Australia and it's associates. Basically all those who are pushing the F-111/F-22 barrow, but with a specific agenda in mind that has nothing to do with what is actually best for Australia.

The side benefit is that now that the Defence Minister is actually getting access to approp data (relevant to his level) he is now discovering how technically ill informed these muppets are. It's no surprise that he has modified his tune now that he is being informed at those approp levels from a variety of professional sources (and not just RAAF or the vendor)

The best thing they could do is pull their heads in, however they are helping to reinforce that they are in fact quite clueless in the scenarios that they submit as evidence of proof of life of alternatives.

The problem is that they haven't realised it yet. Although at the media level there are a few journos who are now quietly tapping on other sources now that they realise that the loudest talkers are not the most informed after all.....

In a perverse sense I hope they keep up the public attack, as it's now starting to become transparent to some of the broadsheet journos that they need to modify their own bleatings so that they don't end up looking like berks (like they did with the F-111 in the 70's and the Collins). Their (Clown Club and Criss and Co) push last week to malign the Uniforms at the Hearings has exposed them for what they are - and its blown apart their rapidly fragmenting credibility even amongst journos who wouldn't know a Sopwith Camel from a Nokia phone.

 

[Trackmaster]

Govt to keep Super Hornets


The Australian Defence Force (ADF) will proceed with plans to acquire Boeing Super Hornet aircraft ordered by the previous government, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon announced.

Mr Fitzgibbon said the Super Hornet was an excellent aircraft capable of meeting any known threat in the region.

"It is the only aircraft which can meet the small delivery window created by the former government's poor planning processes and politically driven responses," he said in a statement.

Mr Fitzgibbon, releasing the first section of Labor's air combat review, accused the coalition of a lack of sound long-term air combat capability planning during the past decade.

The retirement of the RAAF's F-111 strike bomber fleet had been made in haste but was now irreversible.

"The cost of turning the F-111 back on would be enormous and crews and skills have already moved on," he said.

"The former government's decision to leave Australia's air defence in the hands of the Joint Strike Fighter project was a flawed leap of faith in scheduling terms, and combined with the quick decision to retire F-111 early, allowed an air combat capability gap to emerge."


Confirmation of the leak that appeared last week in News Ltd papers.

Much gnashing of teeth for some folks today.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Govt to keep Super Hornets


The Australian Defence Force (ADF) will proceed with plans to acquire Boeing Super Hornet aircraft ordered by the previous government, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon announced.

Mr Fitzgibbon said the Super Hornet was an excellent aircraft capable of meeting any known threat in the region.

"It is the only aircraft which can meet the small delivery window created by the former government's poor planning processes and politically driven responses," he said in a statement.

Mr Fitzgibbon, releasing the first section of Labor's air combat review, accused the coalition of a lack of sound long-term air combat capability planning during the past decade.

The retirement of the RAAF's F-111 strike bomber fleet had been made in haste but was now irreversible.

"The cost of turning the F-111 back on would be enormous and crews and skills have already moved on," he said.

"The former government's decision to leave Australia's air defence in the hands of the Joint Strike Fighter project was a flawed leap of faith in scheduling terms, and combined with the quick decision to retire F-111 early, allowed an air combat capability gap to emerge."


Confirmation of the leak that appeared last week in News Ltd papers.

Much gnashing of teeth for some folks today.

You got a link on that one bud? (i know it wont post URL's but we can cut and paste in a new window).

Well we all knew this was comeing. Of course Mr Fitzgibbon couldnt help but point out that the former governments platform choices were "politically driven" (pot meet kettle ) but at least the right choice was made. My money is on the F-35A being approved in the 2nd section.

Thanks for the heads up track.

 

[Tasman]

You got a link on that one bud? (i know it wont post URL's but we can cut and paste in a new window).

Well we all knew this was comeing. Of course Mr Fitzgibbon couldnt help but point out that the former governments platform choices were "politically driven" (pot meet kettle ) but at least the right choice was made. My money is on the F-35A being approved in the 2nd section.

Thanks for the heads up track.

I'm not Trackmaster but here is a link:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23388822-12377,00.html

RIP the Uber Pig!

Tas

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm not Trackmaster but here is a link:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23388822-12377,00.html

RIP the Uber Pig!

Tas

Thats mate.

 

[the road runner]

Thanx Trackmaster, that its great to hear the super bug order will be going ahead,i hope they cancell the CBR work on classic hornets and order more super bugs for the RAAF(hope the 25 super bugs and 6-8 F/A18G Growlers are purchased as a follow on order)
IMHO the CBR work is a waste of tax payers dollars ,i think if they do proceed they will start the CBR work and then find that more work is needed on strengthning of structural parts,removal of corossive parts:lul ,this ,that and the other and then realise that its not feasable to do.
Then what order more F/A-18 super bugs?

MEEP MEEP

 

[Tasman]

It was noteworthy that the Defmin, now that he has been fully briefed, made the following comments:

1. " The Super Hornet was an excellent aircraft capable of meeting any known threat in the region," and

2. " The cost of turning the F-111 back on would be enormous and crews and skills have already moved on."

Those comments won't please Messrs Kopp, Goon, Criss, etc.

Tas

 

[Todjaeger]

I'm not Trackmaster but here is a link:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23388822-12377,00.html

RIP the Uber Pig!

Tas

Thanks for the link Tas.

Welcome news (to some anyway, less so for others ) on the go ahead for the SH replacement of the F-111. Do not think though that there should be a great rush to add an additional SH order to replace classic/HUG Hornets just yet though. It seems that if an additional build of ~24 SH's were ordered, they would be entering service around, or perhaps just before the LRIP F-35's would start entering service. That is assuming that the USN/USMC gave up some of their build slots like was done for the current SH order

If the HUG fleet is found to be seriously knackered, or there are further slips to the F-35 schedule, then perhaps an additional SH order should be examined then. For now though, SH replacement of the F-111 in the strike role, with the ability to also provide air defence coverage seems sufficient.

On a side note, does anyone know if the SH crews, be primarily tasked for strike roles, while also have similar air defence training of the HUG Bug drivers?

-Cheers

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

As usual you speak some sence Tod.

If we were to place a further order of 32 Rhino derivatives as has been thrown about (24xF & 8xG) they would have to be drawn from some USN spots just after the current 24, so they could be delivered from 2010 on to about 2013. Your right this would only be a year or two earlier than the projected delivery of the LRIP F-35A's, assuming of cource there are no slips in the program. If CBR is abandoned or fails and we are relying on LRIP F-35A's and the deliveries are late by just 2 or 3 years then half of the F/A-18C fleet is going to be basically inoperable. However this would grant us some breathing room, we could drop our order of LRIP F-35's significantly (or totally).

Remeber any more Rhino's would mean the F/A-18F fleet would become a rather more perminant resident in the RAAF's orbat. Therefore only 50~60 F-35's would be required which would probably not be LRIP, which means more capable F-35A's at less money. Personally i'm of two minds on this issue, 50/50 orbat seems to be the best short term soloution and has some major fleet planning issues, however we'll be operateing a platform that is significantly inferior to the one the RAAF chose (perminantly), and would sacrifice all of the logistical advantages to a one platfrom fleet

Admin. Sorry matey, I hit edit instead of quote!

 

[Tasman]

As usual you speak some sence Tod.

If we were to place a further order of 32 Rhino derivatives as has been thrown about (24xF & 8xG) they would have to be drawn from some USN spots just after the current 24, so they could be delivered from 2010 on to about 2013. Your right this would only be a year or two earlier than the projected delivery of the LRIP F-35A's, assuming of cource there are no slips in the program. If CBR is abandoned or fails and we are relying on LRIP F-35A's and the deliveries are late by just 2 or 3 years then half of the F/A-18C fleet is going to be basically inoperable. However this would grant us some breathing room, we could drop our order of LRIP F-35's significantly (or totally). Remeber any more Rhino's would mean the F/A-18F fleet would become a rather more perminant resident in the RAAF's orbat. Therefore only 50~60 F-35's would be required which would probably not be LRIP, which means more capable F-35A's at less money. Personally i'm of two minds on this issue, 50/50 orbat seems to be the best short term soloution and has some major fleet planning issues, however we'll be operateing a platform that is significantly inferior to the one the RAAF chose (perminantly), and would sacrifice all of the logistical advantages to a one platfrom fleet.

The full announcement by the Defmin certainly leaves the way open for a follow on order and for the first time (AFAIK) the possibility of EA-18Gs is officially mentioned (even though he refers to it as the F/A-18G! Oh well, nobody is perfect! ).

17 Mar 2008 MIN18/08
POOR AIR POWER PLANNING EXPOSED BUT SUPER HORNET TO STAY



The Government today announced the outcomes of Part A of its Air Combat Capability review.

Based on the advice of the Review, the Government has concluded:



There has been a lack of sound, long-term air combat capability planning decisions by the former Government over the course of the last decade.


The retirement of the F-111 was made in haste but is now irreversible. The cost of turning the F-111 back on would be enormous and crews and skills have already moved on.


The former Government’s decision to leave Australia’s air defences in the hands of the Joint Strike Fighter project was a flawed leap of faith in scheduling terms and combined with the quick decision to retire the F-111 early, allowed an air combat capability gap to emerge.


The subsequent timetable the former Government put on the acquisition of an interim fighter left Defence planners with no choice but to recommend the Super Hornet. No other suitable aircraft could be produced to meet the 2010 deadline the former Government had set. One year on, that is now even more so the case.


Cancelling the Super Hornet would bring significant financial penalties and create understandable tensions between the contract partners.


The Super Hornet is an excellent aircraft capable of meeting any known threat in the region and is the only aircraft which can meet the small delivery window created by the former Government’s poor planning processes and politically- driven responses.

One benefit the Government’s Review has already produced, through the detailed analysis undertaken, is the opportunity to reduce the cost of the Super Hornets.



As a consequence of the Review process, the Department of Defence has indicated that it expects that significant savings of up to $300 million can be made in the internal Defence and industry costs of supporting the Super Hornet aircraft.



The analysis also highlighted additional capabilities such as specialist electronic warfare variants (the F/A-18G) that will be considered as part of the Super Hornet acquisition. These additional capabilities will be more fully considered under the second stage of the Air Combat Capability Review.



Part B of the Review will continue and further announcements will be made after it reports in late April. It will consider Australia’s air combat capability needs out to 2045, including the status of plans to acquire the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).



Air superiority is Australia’s single most important Defence capability.

The Government thanks the Review team for their hard and conscientious work and looks forward to the team’s further recommendations in ensuring Australia maintains its regional superiority in air combat capability.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/Fitzgibbontpl.cfm?CurrentId=7508

Tas

 

[gf0012-aust]

If we were to place a further order of 32 Rhino derivatives as has been thrown about (24xF & 8xG) they would have to be drawn from some USN spots just after the current 24, so they could be delivered from 2010 on to about 2013.

They're not the numbers that have been chucked about....

 

[Tasman]

They're not the numbers that have been chucked about....

Are you able to elaborate GF? If not I understand!

Tas

 

[Stryker001]

Snauman
June 22nd, 2004, 09:31 AM
F/A-22 Raptor Has No Role As a Bomber, Legendary Fighter Pilot Says
(Source: Project On Government Oversight; dated June 17, web-posted June 22, 2004)http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1798.html


The SH deal was always going to go through, but I don't know about another purchase if there are delays with the JSF.


Israel want to acquire the F-22 also I would assume as a deep penetration bomber, not in an air-to-air combat role, to deal with regional issue such as Iran. Like their JSF purchase it would be a small number of craft.


I would have allowed a USMC base to be established in Northern Australia, on the condition that Australia would be supplied the F-22. I know Japan has USMC bases but not allowed the F-22. Different country different deal. A USMC base in the North has been tossed about before in the States, but is unpopular in Australia. It would negatively affect public opinion on the alliance, for the F-22 it would be worth it.