Are really expensive advance trainers worth it? I look at the United States Air Force and the Air Forces of Israel, France and a few others and most don’t have that “high end” super advance trainer like the T-50 and the Aermacchi M-346 to name a few. England has the Hawk which is rated very well but most of the larger air forces of the world don’t. South Korea building an interesting trainer and did approved plans to acquire approximately 100 T-50s, half in the standard configuration and half in a Lead-In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) version called the A-50. The U.S. Air Force has decided to upgrade its more than 500 Northrop T-38s rather than acquire a new advanced trainer. They seem to be alright without investing in a mini fighter for a trainer. I call it a mini fighter because if the T-50 could carry a little more fuel South Korean F-16 pilots would start to lose flying time. Russia going with the Yak-130 its capabilities is a little unknown but I believe a few have been produced and are in the testing stages. China going with an L-15 but has other trainers as well so it’s difficult to tell if the L-15 will be there overall advance trainer. Is there truly a market for these $15/20+ million per trainer aircraft when aircraft like FC-1, A/B Vipers, etc that have more capabilities as far as range, speed, and payload run for about the same price? Could these advance trainers carry enough fuel or have a capable enough radar fit inside there smaller frames to be useful in the light attack or COIN role? Would it be worth while for smaller air forces who still use F-5, Kfir, Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-23, A-4,J-7, F-1C, AMX, Mirage V/50, maybe older F-16 that haven’t been upgrade yet, or other similar fighters to go with for example a modern brand new T-50? I realized that some of the aircraft I listed above carry larger payloads and are Mach 2 fighters my point being would it be worth it changing over to a very modern platform be worth it.
Are advance trainers worth the investment?
- Thread starter ROCK45
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The Yak-130 and the M-346 are supposed to have almost equal abilities since they are the same airframe and they originally come from the same program so is in overall a very capable Advanced Trainer. In my opinion the T-50 is an overshoot for any air force due to the high price tag and the maintainance costs involved with an aircraft with an afterburner and a Mach +1 speed but in general Advanced Trainers are essential for Advanced Air forces to provide realistic training to the pilots that will later on fly the 60+ million aircraft they pilot and to give them the essential flying hours in an affordable way before actual conversion to an aircraft type.
I dont think any air force that flies the obsolete aircraft you mentioned would ever consider a new advanced trainer like the ones above.
I dont think any air force that flies the obsolete aircraft you mentioned would ever consider a new advanced trainer like the ones above.
Countries have adopted more advance trainers with the possibility they may be used in a swing role as tactical aircraft.
This will keep the number of airframes in the inventory down and even airframe types. On the other hand cost per flight hour and number of maintenance hours per flight hour would be greater than with just a pure trainer.
This will keep the number of airframes in the inventory down and even airframe types. On the other hand cost per flight hour and number of maintenance hours per flight hour would be greater than with just a pure trainer.
IIRC:
France operates some 100 Alpha Jet E
Israel still use the old Fouga Magister
USA bought more than 200 of the british Hawk as T-45A Goshawk
All used as advanced LIFTs. Come to think of it, the only larger Air Force that dont have LIFTs is the German Luftwaffe, because all their pilots are trained in the USA...
France operates some 100 Alpha Jet E
Israel still use the old Fouga Magister
USA bought more than 200 of the british Hawk as T-45A Goshawk
All used as advanced LIFTs. Come to think of it, the only larger Air Force that dont have LIFTs is the German Luftwaffe, because all their pilots are trained in the USA...
Complicated issue. The aircraft used for training in the USA are owned by Germany, but fly under USAF colors. I think if this pilot training agreement would ever falter, those aircraft would be quite a bone of legal contention between both airforces...
Currently this is the case for 35 T-37 for starter training, and 46 T-38 for LIFT.
One squadron is stationed at Holloman AFB (advanced training leading to type classification on Tornado and - formerly - F-4F/ICE), the second squadron is at Pensacola AFB (navigator training), quite a couple aircraft also at Sheppard AFB (NATO pilot training base).
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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New Trainer
Lets use Sri Lanka for example here's country that uses old Mig-27s and I think Kfir C-7s and was looking at a Mig-29 deal. They don't really have any enemies that have modern fighters and the Fulcrums were to give them some fighter capabilities which was an over kill anyway but besides the point. Shooting down prop jobs with a Fulcrum does seem a bit much. There Mig-27 don't fly with there maximum payload and either do there Kfir's so heavy attack generally isn't needed. Couldn't a L-15/Yak-130/or M346, equipped with a light radar replace both of these aircraft with a modern platform? So in the future when more funding does become available the pilots and maintenance will be ready to transition to a modern fighter. Maybe another niche or task for a duel purpose advance trainer could be to shoot down drug runners, as a A-37 replacement? Maybe some African countries might be interested in something a little more them a K-8 but less then a full size fighter? I think the market might be in the duel purpose function more so then the high end advance trainer role?
On a side note I just saw this
Sri Lanka nears MiG-29 purchase
Sri Lanka is in advanced talks with Russia over the procurement of five MiG-29 fighter aircraft, the head of the country's state-owned procurement agency has said.
Jayantha Wickramasinghe, chief executive officer of Lanka Logistics and Technologies Limited (the company created by the Sri Lankan Ministry of Defence in 2007 to procure equipment for the armed forces), said that the acquisition of four MiG-29SMs and one MiG-29UB was "well under way".
"Negotiations about these aircraft are continuing," Wickramasinghe told Jane's on 13 March. "We are discussing all possibilities."
The procurement follows the emergence of the air division of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), which used Zlin Z 143 light aircraft to bomb the airport and Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) base in Colombo in March 2007.
Link
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw080314_1_n.shtml
Lets use Sri Lanka for example here's country that uses old Mig-27s and I think Kfir C-7s and was looking at a Mig-29 deal. They don't really have any enemies that have modern fighters and the Fulcrums were to give them some fighter capabilities which was an over kill anyway but besides the point. Shooting down prop jobs with a Fulcrum does seem a bit much. There Mig-27 don't fly with there maximum payload and either do there Kfir's so heavy attack generally isn't needed. Couldn't a L-15/Yak-130/or M346, equipped with a light radar replace both of these aircraft with a modern platform? So in the future when more funding does become available the pilots and maintenance will be ready to transition to a modern fighter. Maybe another niche or task for a duel purpose advance trainer could be to shoot down drug runners, as a A-37 replacement? Maybe some African countries might be interested in something a little more them a K-8 but less then a full size fighter? I think the market might be in the duel purpose function more so then the high end advance trainer role?
On a side note I just saw this
Sri Lanka nears MiG-29 purchase
Sri Lanka is in advanced talks with Russia over the procurement of five MiG-29 fighter aircraft, the head of the country's state-owned procurement agency has said.
Jayantha Wickramasinghe, chief executive officer of Lanka Logistics and Technologies Limited (the company created by the Sri Lankan Ministry of Defence in 2007 to procure equipment for the armed forces), said that the acquisition of four MiG-29SMs and one MiG-29UB was "well under way".
"Negotiations about these aircraft are continuing," Wickramasinghe told Jane's on 13 March. "We are discussing all possibilities."
The procurement follows the emergence of the air division of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), which used Zlin Z 143 light aircraft to bomb the airport and Sri Lankan Air Force (SLAF) base in Colombo in March 2007.
Link
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw080314_1_n.shtml
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Ummm.....USAF has the T-38, about as high performace as a trainer gets, as well as many, MANY F-16B/Ds, F-15B/Ds, F/A-18B/D/Fs etc! Israel has a large number of F-16B/Ds and F-15B/Ds. France has two-seat Mirage 2000s and Rafales.
Otherwise, good call...!
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Hawk users: RAF, IAF, RAAF, RMAF, South African Air Force, UAE Air Force.
USAF - T-38 Talon fast jet trainer. A Hawk derivative.
Russian Air Force - Yak 138
French Air Force - Alpha jet.
The list goes on and on. Basically EVERY air force that operates a fast jet capability, has a fast jet trainer capability.
I think you'll find that the T-45 Goshawk is the USN/USMC carrier capable Hawk derivative.
The T-38 Talon is a trainer version of the Freedom Fighter
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A
Aussie Digger
Guest
well, you don't have a brain fart that often, so no "biggie".Right you are.
Getting my services mixed up...