NZDF General discussion thread

[Navor86]

But could the NZDF support the Deployment of an Infantry Coy atm?
Am I right that each of the Infantry Bn has 4 Infantry Coys? And by so atm there are no Coys left to deploy beacuse of R and R and Trainig Phase for the others?

BTW I was playing with the thought why the NZDF isnt providing a Commando Cap like 4th RAR or SFSG to support the SAS or work alone to keep SAS workshift lower.
Letz take it that the Goverment is willing to create such a force,how big could it possibly be. Ithink no more tha a Company,but how big would this Coy be?
I mean would it be to big if we would have 6 Platoons each with 40 men (1 Platoon for each SAS Troop to support when necessary) + a Recce Platoon with 6 Teams. This would mean around 300 men? To big for a Coy? To Big for NZDF?

 

[RubiconNZ]

But could the NZDF support the Deployment of an Infantry Coy atm?
Am I right that each of the Infantry Bn has 4 Infantry Coys? And by so atm there are no Coys left to deploy beacuse of R and R and Trainig Phase for the others?

Last time I remember the NZDF only operate 2x 3 Company Infantry battalions.

 

[Lucasnz]

Last time I remember the NZDF only operate 2x 3 Company Infantry battalions.

From the information I've been able to gather Infantry is organised as follows

1 RNZIR - 3 x Motorised Infantry companies, 1 x Recon Company, 1 Heavy Weapons Co. 2/1 RNZIR - 3 x Light Infantry, 1 x Recon, 1 Heavy Weapons Co, Logistics Co. QAMR - This is suppose to be the 3rd Battalion (motorised), but I'm not sure how its currently outfitted.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

QAMR - This is suppose to be the 3rd Battalion (motorised), but I'm not sure how its currently outfitted.

One squadron, effectively. I dont know if they have dismounts or just vehicle crews.

 

[PeterH]

One squadron, effectively. I dont know if they have dismounts or just vehicle crews.

According to Wikipeida QAMR have the following organisation:

"Currently the Squadron is made up of:

Squadron Headquarters (SHQ),
3 x Cav Troops (1,2 & 3 Tps), and
Support Troop (Spt Tp).
Squadron Headquarters operates NZLAV and LOV (Pinzgauer) in the command role, while each cav troop consists of 4 x NZLAV. Support troop is a combination of the Quartermasters Store (Unimog) and the Fitters Section who provide 1st line repair and recovery (LAV-R and LOV or Unimog). The squadron also operates Armoured LOV in a reconnaissance and surveillance role when needed."

And according to the RNZAC Association they have a strenth of around 60 men today with 16 LAV. This will probably exclude the possibility of any dismounts in the unit.

 

[PeterH]

From the information I've been able to gather Infantry is organised as follows

1 RNZIR - 3 x Motorised Infantry companies, 1 x Recon Company, 1 Heavy Weapons Co. 2/1 RNZIR - 3 x Light Infantry, 1 x Recon, 1 Heavy Weapons Co, Logistics Co. QAMR - This is suppose to be the 3rd Battalion (motorised), but I'm not sure how its currently outfitted.

Do you know anything about how these Recon Companies are organised and equipped? I read a few years ago about plans to equip them with a range of new survelliance equipment but I have sofar seen nothing more about this subject.

 

[mug]

This was discussed some time ago, but I've just seen it published today on Stuff:

Millions to upgrade defence weaponry
NZPA | Tuesday, 26 February 2008

Weapons used by the three services of the New Zealand military, the army, the navy and the air force, are to be upgraded at a cost of millions of dollars.

The New Zealand Defence Force has begun a study of 10 weapons systems, mostly small arms issued to soldiers, sailors and airmen.
However, although the 13,000 Steyr rifles which have been in service for 20 years, would not be replaced, they would be a significant part of the upgrade programme.

The study would look at modifying about 3000 of the 13,000 5.56mm rifles so they could take more fittings on the top rail, instead of the factory-fitted 1.5 magnification sighting system.

However, the light support system, the 5.56mm Minimi light machine gun would be replaced. It was first issued in 1988 and was expected to come to the end of its useful economic life in about 18 months.

The study would also include the 9mm Sig Sauer pistols, first introduced in 1992, shotguns, sniper rifles and the Carl Gustov anti-tank weapon first introduced in 1989.

NZDF spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Hugh McAslan, said the Steyr rifles would be upgraded rather than replaced because they were in good condition and there were few other comparable options on the market.
Steyr ammunition would also be in the trial to see if a more powerful round would improve the versatility of the rifle.

"We have got a whole range of questions we need to answer through the testing and evaluation activity."

Lt Col McAslan said the Steyr rifles could be used in Afghanistan where they could be shooting at an enemy 400 metres away or in the jungles of East Timor where they could be only 10 metres away.

He said the demands on weapons from different environments would be included in the evaluation.

He said the NZDF wanted another 10 years of life out of the Steyrs but the 3000 to be upgraded would be able to be fitted with a range of sights and ancillary options such as white light and aiming systems.

The Steyr upgrade would begin next year and finish in 2011 but the entire programme would be completed in 2014 and would cost about $33 million.

And the same article in this morning's Herald.

 

[Gibbo]

Further to the weapons upfgrade story - here's a link to Army News that has a little more detail on the systems to be upgraded and/or replaced...

http://www.army.mil.nz/at-a-glance/news/army-news/383/wru.htm

 

[mug]

Yep - it only took the papers two and a half months to pick up the story!

 

[Lucasnz]

Do you know anything about how these Recon Companies are organised and equipped? I read a few years ago about plans to equip them with a range of new survelliance equipment but I have sofar seen nothing more about this subject.

Only the very basic about 100 people in 3 platoons. That's all I've been able to gather.

 

[PeterH]

Only the very basic about 100 people in 3 platoons. That's all I've been able to gather.

Thanks, possibly something like the old Ranger Company for 2nd/1 st Battalion.

 

[Navor86]

I just went trough the US Stryker Orbat which has 3800 Troops.
As for the major Units there are 3 Infantry Bn+1Recon Bn+1 Arty Bn.
What I do not get why the Kiwis do not go for this struture as there are 3/4 of those Units are already in the active Kiwi Army.And the major increase would be the raising of an extra Bn+1 Arty Unit and maybe along the Aussies a Commando Company Group

 

[Lucasnz]

I just went trough the US Stryker Orbat which has 3800 Troops.
As for the major Units there are 3 Infantry Bn+1Recon Bn+1 Arty Bn.
What I do not get why the Kiwis do not go for this struture as there are 3/4 of those Units are already in the active Kiwi Army.And the major increase would be the raising of an extra Bn+1 Arty Unit and maybe along the Aussies a Commando Company Group

I've looked the the US Stryker Brigade. The infantry Battalion format is one I like, but the numbers don't reflect some of the capabilities, which are substanial and shortfalls highlighted in the FM's The infantry battalions have no internal logistics except at the company level. The Engineer capability is only a company strong, and the FM makes it very clear that arugmentation is required. On the logistic battalion side, I understand they've increased its size, but its still rather small. The Styker Brigade is I think highly dependant on support from Divisional units to acheive some of its aims.

For the infantry battalion structure I'm more inclined towards the Royal Marines Commando 21 force, that includes a logistics and basic engineer capability.

 

[Navor86]

But arent the current NZ Logistics and Engineer Units alraedy big enough to support 4 Manouvre Bn?With each of the Bn having 3 Companies?
BTW I would merge the 2 (after expansion 3) Recon Companies with the Mounted Rifles to form a Recon/ISTAR Unit

 

[Lucasnz]

But arent the current NZ Logistics and Engineer Units alraedy big enough to support 4 Manouvre Bn?With each of the Bn having 3 Companies?
BTW I would merge the 2 (after expansion 3) Recon Companies with the Mounted Rifles to form a Recon/ISTAR Unit

The Enginners are suppose to be able to field two Light Enginner sqn's. From the slightly dated information (3yrs) the Engineers regt is made up of a Feild Sqn, Equipment Support Sqn & HQ Sqn. The Royal Marines have just gone from two feild sqns to 3. 1sqn per infantry battalion seems to be the norm from the research I've done.

I don't have much info on the logistics battalion, but we currently have two. They way I see it only one regular battalion is needed (The RM Logistics Battalion has around 1000 when fully manned), that provides brigade support, and battalion sustainment. The individual units should have their own logistics company to support deployments like East Timor etc.

The problem with the current army structure is that they're trying to operate 2 Brigades (2nd & 3rd Land Force Groups) when the regular army doesn't really have enough to form 1.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

The problem with the current army structure is that they're trying to operate 2 Brigades (2nd & 3rd Land Force Groups) when the regular army doesn't really have enough to form 1.

I get the feeling that this is a result of army working on a basis of 'What if' x happens. If you have a look at the army over all there is a feeling of a skeleton expansion model in existence, particularly when you consider that Waikato Mounted Rifles is treated like a separate unit for most purposes, despite not showing up on the official TOE.
That they are trying to operate two administrative brigades maybe the result of choices and decisions that are very confidential.

 

[Todjaeger]

I get the feeling that this is a result of army working on a basis of 'What if' x happens. If you have a look at the army over all there is a feeling of a skeleton expansion model in existence, particularly when you consider that Waikato Mounted Rifles is treated like a separate unit for most purposes, despite not showing up on the official TOE.
That they are trying to operate two administrative brigades maybe the result of choices and decisions that are very confidential.

That idea may well be true re: skeletal expansion for the army. I question though if that is a reasonable model to follow though. Given the time needed to actually raise/expand a force, what sort of potential conflict(s) this model is intended to counter, and in what timeframe. When I have a chance, I will expand on this more, but if anyone has any theories on why the NZDF might be following this model, please post them.

-Cheers

 

[Stuart Mackey]

That idea may well be true re: skeletal expansion for the army. I question though if that is a reasonable model to follow though.

Reasonable depends entirely on what is expected of the army
Such a model has worked in the past and would be the most productive way, probably the only way, to contribute meaningfully to a large scale conflict.

Given the time needed to actually raise/expand a force, what sort of potential conflict(s) this model is intended to counter, and in what timeframe.

I would suggest that, as with all nations, any situation that threatens NZ's vital interests, and that would be regional as well as global conflict. Determining those interests is simply a matter of following the trade and income figures. Time frame would be what it always has been historically,given the base we are operating from: two years minimum, presupposing availability of equipment.

When I have a chance, I will expand on this more, but if anyone has any theories on why the NZDF might be following this model, please post them.

-Cheers

If this is the model being followed, I can only assume that its the same basic reasoning behind why it was used in the past; Defence of New Zealand's political independence, way of life etc in the most effective manner without massive and ruinous expenditure during peacetime.
Would the NZDF be conducting itself professionally if it did not plan for, and have basic structures for, a worst case scenario?

 

[Lucasnz]

Given the time needed to actually raise/expand a force, what sort of potential conflict(s) this model is intended to counter

I would suggest the model is part historical (in that NZ once aimed to maintain a division for the Commonwealth Strategic Reserve) and part geography (Two Islands). Some years ago there was talk of shutting Burnham Camp down, but the government accepted the army's view point that the camp was required for "Strategic Reasons" - whatever that means.

The Budget agreement indicates that a Brigade is required for more serious regional threats to security (i.e invasion of Australia). I would suggest that the second HQ is to meet operations in NZ and rotation.

I think the earliest NZ could deploy an operational two battalion brigade is 12 weeks; to say Australia. I suggest this timeframe based on the chronic state of manning, the fact that army exercises at Brigade level are typically paper and the time frame to actual deploy. This would require the Army reserve to called up to meet the regular force shortfall. The TF force would require upto 6 months to form an operationally viable infantry & artillery units, however they maybe able to acheive this more quickly given the deployments of the TF to operational hotzones.

I note that the army has the core equipment to form a 3 Battalion Brigade, but nothing more in terms of artillery etc.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

snippage

I note that the army has the core equipment to form a 3 Battalion Brigade, but nothing more in terms of artillery etc.

If we look at the combat units, you have 2 regular and 6 territorial for two brigades, but if one were to include QAMAR and Waikato Mounted in the mix you get ten units, not counting 16 field regiment or 4 G battery (I have heard that there are plans afoot to have 4G back as an honest medium battery) for a theoretical world is ending three brigades (if someone magics up the gear).

I suspect that will be scaled plans for up to a division if circumstance require in the worst case scenarios, but even a brigade is stretching things enormously when the totality of equipment is looked at, and thats no counting logistics problems between NZ and the theatre.

Honestly, its either operations with things as they are now or a large scale mobilization and equipment buys for a given deployed force, but there is no gear for anything in between.