The race is on- in Switzerland

[Falstaff]

From my viewpoint the proposed Swiss fighter purchase seems very odd. Switzerland has enough F-18's suitable for years to come. Then again, Switzerland lacks modern area air defense missiles (Patriot, Aster et al) which can be used against ballistic missiles and AEW planes suitable for early warning. Switzerland is a minuscule country, it can be even covered with very small amount of missiles.

No, it's not odd at all. They have 33 F-18's as of now and a Luftwaffe official stated they would need about 66 fighter jets in total to cover their needs.
Did you ever have a look at Switzerland's topography? Very, very complicated. You still suggesting missiles? The Swiss need a flexible means of air defense with a pilot in the front and which is able to dive deep into the valleys if needed.
And excuse me, but what would you possibly need/ use an AEW aircraft for in Switzerland?

BTW the Swiss take much pride in their Luftwaffe and for a country that small they have a very formidable, very professional air force.

 

[swerve]

From my viewpoint the proposed Swiss fighter purchase seems very odd. Switzerland has enough F-18's suitable for years to come. Then again, Switzerland lacks modern area air defense missiles (Patriot, Aster et al) which can be used against ballistic missiles and AEW planes suitable for early warning. Switzerland is a minuscule country, it can be even covered with very small amount of missiles.

Geography & threat.

Small country, high mountains to put radars on which can look a long way into neighbouring countries, AEW aircraft have very little space indeed to operate (you don't put 'em within SAM range of the borders - and that means most of the country).

Fighters can do air policing. Missiles can't.

 

[kato]

Somewhat interestingly, Swiss SAM outfitting mirrors British outfits.

Read, they used to have Bloodhound Mk 2 for stationary strategic defense, and nowadays only rely on Rapier and MANPADS (and Skyguard, unlike the UK).

 

[contedicavour]

If the tender remains focused on F5 replacement, then Gripen is the best choice as the lightest and cheapest of the contenders.
If Switzerland realizes it should harmonize its relatively small air force, then it should modernize F18s to E/F and buy new ones.
If Switzerland wants to integrate neighboring EU countries' air forces for better training and interoperability (even joint operations one day !) then it should buy Typhoons. Germany, Austria and Italy have it...

Complicated isn't it ?

cheers

 

[kato]

If Switzerland wants to integrate neighboring EU countries' air forces for better training and interoperability (even joint operations one day !) then it should buy Typhoons.

Current joint maneuvers with Germany work quite well with current Swiss F/A-18 (next NATO maneuver up: Elite 2008 in July, focus is airborne EW; Switzerland regularly takes part).

 

[contedicavour]

Current joint maneuvers with Germany work quite well with current Swiss F/A-18 (next NATO maneuver up: Elite 2008 in July, focus is airborne EW; Switzerland regularly takes part).

True, after all the Luftwaffe still operates F4s... but see it one step further, with multinational Typhoons operating in a single squadron for peacekeeping operations... today this is wishful thinking since Switzerland still keeps its isolation, but who knows, things evolve and the Typhoons will remain in service for at least 35 years...

cheers

 

[Jon K]

Geography & threat.

Small country, high mountains to put radars on which can look a long way into neighbouring countries, AEW aircraft have very little space indeed to operate (you don't put 'em within SAM range of the borders - and that means most of the country).

Fighters can do air policing. Missiles can't.

Geography is fair point, but threat? What is the identifiable threat against Switzerland? Probably not high intensity tactical air operation but a strategic air raids at most. If some rogue country decides that Switzerland is giving too much support for the West they will use either terrorism or ballistic missile to deliver their payload, not a normal air raid.

If the threat is already in neighbouring countries, SAM's can securely operate at SAM contested airspace, fighters can not.

Besides, without proper BMD defense the few Swiss airbases can be effectively neutralized. Do the Swiss have plans for BMD defense? Air defense can not be constructed using fighters alone.

For mere air policing, Swiss have ample Hornets.

 

[contedicavour]

Besides, without proper BMD defense the few Swiss airbases can be effectively neutralized. Do the Swiss have plans for BMD defense? .

Have you ever actually seen the Swiss airbases ?
Probably not because... several are hidden underneath mountains and can even use highways for emergency take off and landing...
so taking out Swiss airbases as you say is as easy as bombing the Talibs out of the Afghan mountains

cheers

 

[Jon K]

Have you ever actually seen the Swiss airbases ?
Probably not because... several are hidden underneath mountains and can even use highways for emergency take off and landing...
so taking out Swiss airbases as you say is as easy as bombing the Talibs out of the Afghan mountains

cheers

Well, a Hornet is mightily more difficult to hide than a bunch of men, for starters... :

I doubt Swiss airbases are hidden underneath mountains, although plane shelters might be carved into rock. But fixed bases can be disturbed by present generation of tactical missiles. Aircraft on runway are always vulnerable, moreover in highway bases as there's not as much fortified shelters available for planes and support personnel. Moreover, tactical missiles are very useful for SEAD before strikes with conventional planes. An air defense without ability to defend against tactical ballistic missiles is not a credible air defense these days.

 

[Waylander]

I really have no idea but shouldn't ballistic missiles have problems with hitting fortified targets in a mountaineous region just due to their nature.

I mean they follow a ballistic flight path and I could imagine it is really hard to hit a tzarget at a mountainside.

 

[kato]

I doubt Swiss airbases are hidden underneath mountains, although plane shelters might be carved into rock. But fixed bases can be disturbed by present generation of tactical missiles.

They are actually.

Currently only one "aircraft cavern" is active, a second one is in reserve, three more were recently closed down.
The active cavern at Meiringen fits 34 F/A-18-sized aircraft, and includes all the required facilities of an airbase (... short of the runway and tower of course).
Based upon other, similar bases, you can bet this cavern can easily withstand a 20-30 kt nuke.

As for TBM, i'd have my doubts the Swiss terrain (steep mountains and valleys) lends itself all that well to a defense system there. Gotta get that SAM into the air on an intercept path first.

 

[SlyDog]

Jon K

I think people in Switzerland know how to build things into the mountains - here are a list over train tunnels - I think they have gained some experiense by the time..

LIST

 

[Waylander]

They literally buried their whole defense infrastructure into the mountains with lots of redundanties in it.

Even after they closed down a lot of these facilities (Or put them into reserve) with the end of cold war there is still enough left to make any attacker pay bitterly during the attempt to dug them out.

And it wouldn't be that big of a problem to reactivate additional facilities in case of need.

What do our air pros say about it. Am I right with the idea that it is hard to operate long range SAMs in a mountaineous region like the Alps and that the ballistic flight path of ballistic missiles makes it hard to attack sites which are on the wrong side of the mountain (Not to talk of the minimal damage a conventional BM is going to cause when it hits a mountain bunker)?

 

[Jon K]

They literally buried their whole defense infrastructure into the mountains with lots of redundanties in it.

Very good points, as someone living in fairly flat country did not really think about them.

But still, even though TBM's and SRBM's (a la ATACMS etc.) are not wonder weapons they still present an air threat which can not be dealt with anything but SAM's with present technology. And even if Swiss defence infrastructure is well buried, the main population centers and civilian infrastructure are situated in plains area. Additionally, any major battle against land invader would have to be preferably fought in plains before heading for Alpine Redoubt for heroic last stand.

 

[swerve]

Geography is fair point, but threat? What is the identifiable threat against Switzerland? Probably not high intensity tactical air operation but a strategic air raids at most. If some rogue country decides that Switzerland is giving too much support for the West they will use either terrorism or ballistic missile to deliver their payload, not a normal air raid.

If the threat is already in neighbouring countries, SAM's can securely operate at SAM contested airspace, fighters can not.

Besides, without proper BMD defense the few Swiss airbases can be effectively neutralized. Do the Swiss have plans for BMD defense? Air defense can not be constructed using fighters alone.

For mere air policing, Swiss have ample Hornets.

It's like the three most important things about a shop: location, location & location. The three most important things about Swiss defence are geography, geography & geography. Any rogue state launching a ballistic missile against Switzerland will have to launch it from a long way off, since Switzerlands neighbours are not now nor likely ever to be rogue states - geography. Switzerland could only detect such a missile in the terminal stage of its flight, when it'd be rather hard to defend against, since Switzerland is small - geography. The neighbours would detect it much earlier, & if equipped with suitable missiles, could shoot it down more easily, perhaps in the boost phase - geography. Since they would not, when they detected it, know it was aimed at Switzerland, they probably would try to shoot it down if they could, & if not, they'd probably bomb the brown stuff out of the country that launched it. Not something the Swiss need to worry their little cuckoo-clocks about.

"Strategic air raids" against Switzerland are impossible. The EU can close Switzerland down by closing the borders, so no have no reason to launch any raids. Either invade to conquer the country, or apply economic pressure for anything less.

Nobody else can reach it except by conquering the neighbours, at which point they're in the same position. Either invade to conquer, or to pass through it to flank a neighbour. No reason for "strategic air raids".

Switzerlands armed forces are intended to make the country not worth conquering, not invulnerable to all attack. The latter is impossible, & they know it.

BTW, why don't you tell us about the superiority of SAMs to fighters in the wars of the last few decades, hmmm?

 

[Jon K]

Nobody else can reach it except by conquering the neighbours, at which point they're in the same position. Either invade to conquer, or to pass through it to flank a neighbour. No reason for "strategic air raids".

Switzerlands armed forces are intended to make the country not worth conquering, not invulnerable to all attack. The latter is impossible, & they know it.

But if we accept the only full scale land intervention to conquer or for a flanking manouver as the only threat scenario, it would include massive use of tactical ballistic missiles, as displayed by rather liberal use of ATACMS by the US Army in OIF. An air defense incapable of meeting this threat at all is not a full spectrum air defense.

Besides, a neutrality relying on capability of shooting down attack (or errant missile) by neighbouring states is little puzzling. Anti TBM systems have rather short range except for SM-3. No European country has enough to cover all of it's territories and probably would lend no service to a freerider.

I don't think even the least sane Swiss think EU as a threat for them. Any threat materializing against Switzerland would either come out of EU or as a result of a long adverse development of EU.

BTW, why don't you tell us about the superiority of SAMs to fighters in the wars of the last few decades, hmmm?

Personally I would give more credit to the Swiss military than to those of Serbia, Iraq, Syria etc. No one would claim AK series assault rifle as bad rifle merely by pointing out that many times it's users have been on the losing side. But how about Argentinian Air Force before and after meeting SAM's? In OIF US Army Patriots did a good job to protect US forces from tactical ballistic missiles.

Switzerland already has good fighters. Even with an air defense mostly based in fighters or SAM's it's good to have the other component as it forces the attacker to spend resources to neutralize, or at least to worry about, the non-primary defense component.

 

[contedicavour]

Very good points, as someone living in fairly flat country did not really think about them.

But still, even though TBM's and SRBM's (a la ATACMS etc.) are not wonder weapons they still present an air threat which can not be dealt with anything but SAM's with present technology. And even if Swiss defence infrastructure is well buried, the main population centers and civilian infrastructure are situated in plains area. Additionally, any major battle against land invader would have to be preferably fought in plains before heading for Alpine Redoubt for heroic last stand.

Actually only some cities are exposed to attack on the plains, such as Geneva. Other cities (including the capital Bern) are reachable only after getting through several tunnels. Switzerland has hundreds of thousands of well trained reservists capable of intervening very fast and still doing trainings every year. And they have heavy gear including Leo2 MBTs...

I've seen Swiss F18s flying over the Geneva lake and appearing/disappearing behind the mountains with a very low flight profile. If your forces are advancing in small alpine valleys and all it takes is a few guided bombs to destroy a tunnel and lock you into open space, imagine how difficult it becomes to move around Switzerland...

cheers

 

[Jon K]

I've seen Swiss F18s flying over the Geneva lake and appearing/disappearing behind the mountains with a very low flight profile. If your forces are advancing in small alpine valleys and all it takes is a few guided bombs to destroy a tunnel and lock you into open space, imagine how difficult it becomes to move around Switzerland...

It works both ways, unfortunately... Have you seen clips from Argentinian fighters attacking San Carlos Bay? Their loss rate was tremendous.

 

[contedicavour]

It works both ways, unfortunately... Have you seen clips from Argentinian fighters attacking San Carlos Bay? Their loss rate was tremendous.

Yep but they were short on fuel because they were taking off from far away Argentina, their iron bombs were unguided and most didn't explode. If without warning you see F18s coming from a nearby mountain base, full of Paveways, Mavericks and the like ... and all the more flying in an area they know by heart because it's their own...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

But the Swiss Hornets don't have any A2G capabilities (Apart from the gun). They use them solely for A2A.

Is their new plane required to have A2G capabilities or are they again searching for a pure airfighter?