Nobody saw this earlier?! Here:
http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/20212
Anyone interested?
nfloorl:
http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/20212
Anyone interested?
nfloorl:
China apparently seeking "Ka-50, MRLs and subs" from Russia next
- Thread starter drg
- Start date
cyberstranger
New Member
They are not crazy
The Russians are not crazy, although they are greedy enough, to sell their most sophisticated military hardware to China. They know that one day the Chinese will turn it against Russia. It comes as no surprise that the systems sold to India are more sophisticated than those bought by China.
The Russians are not crazy, although they are greedy enough, to sell their most sophisticated military hardware to China. They know that one day the Chinese will turn it against Russia. It comes as no surprise that the systems sold to India are more sophisticated than those bought by China.
The Chinese are not buying any of that stuff. They have their own now. The Russian defense industry might like to dream on but it ain't going to happen. The Chinese often pretend that they're "interested" but the real intention is to fish for information and specifications which they can use as reference for their own systems to better.
Russia already sold the Chinese advanced jet fighters, and these are more strategically significant than attack choppers. So why wouldn't Russia sell attack helicopters, MLRS and subs to China?
The thing they'll fear is if the Chinese will copy their stuff - AGAIN.
The thing they'll fear is if the Chinese will copy their stuff - AGAIN.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #7
You've hit the nail on the head Chino.
The Ka-50 (and/or Ka-52) couldbe used to transport Chinese special operations troops (in similar fashion to current to Russia's equipping MVD and Spetsnaz with the Ka-50).
The MLRS is simply due to the historical consideration by the PLA of the importance of massed artillery bombardments preceding an attack.
The submarine they're aiming for could be the Amur maybe to assist in the development of a Type 095 submarine (or Type O93-4). (though Russia convinced Venezuela not to buy it recently due to ongoing tests regarding its components).
And, as Chino pointed out, the Russians would be rightly concerned regarding China's copying of its technology, though that hasn't stopped them from selling equipment to China in the past.
The Ka-50 (and/or Ka-52) couldbe used to transport Chinese special operations troops (in similar fashion to current to Russia's equipping MVD and Spetsnaz with the Ka-50).
The MLRS is simply due to the historical consideration by the PLA of the importance of massed artillery bombardments preceding an attack.
The submarine they're aiming for could be the Amur maybe to assist in the development of a Type 095 submarine (or Type O93-4). (though Russia convinced Venezuela not to buy it recently due to ongoing tests regarding its components).
And, as Chino pointed out, the Russians would be rightly concerned regarding China's copying of its technology, though that hasn't stopped them from selling equipment to China in the past.
One salesman's dream after another. At the end of the year, like the end of last year, and the year before, they will get zero sales. Kamov already said long time ago that China wasn't interested in the Ka-50. They brought the Ka-50 once before (like in the year 2000) for demonstrations, but they have not brought the helo for quite some time now since then.
MLRS China is looking to export some instead.
What will China gain from the Amur? I don't see anything it has over the Yuan, both are much similar in general configuration but the Yuan is much larger which means it can put more of everything. And they have that already in mass production, China putting out the first Yuan in the water before the Russians put out the Amur.
Chinese are not buying anything except engines for their J-10s, until the Russians fix up that transport order. The most likely orders in the future will be centered in transport helicopters, and unless the Russians fix up the IL-76 order, the helo orders will end up somewhere else.
MLRS China is looking to export some instead.
What will China gain from the Amur? I don't see anything it has over the Yuan, both are much similar in general configuration but the Yuan is much larger which means it can put more of everything. And they have that already in mass production, China putting out the first Yuan in the water before the Russians put out the Amur.
Chinese are not buying anything except engines for their J-10s, until the Russians fix up that transport order. The most likely orders in the future will be centered in transport helicopters, and unless the Russians fix up the IL-76 order, the helo orders will end up somewhere else.
as I posted on my blog, this article is just some wishful thinking. There are very few things that China will buy from the Russians right now and nothing is mentioned in there.
My list is comprised of Tu-160, S-400, 99M series, Irbis, Mi-17/26/38, IL-76/78. Actually, the most critical ones are the transport helo and aircraft. Interesting enough, those are the ones that the Russians are trying to blackmail China on.
095 drawing from the Russians? Russia is going to help China build a nuclear sub better than their Akulas?
Talking about helos, look what China is actually buying, and from whom exactly in all places.
http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080227131934.8ix69ngq.html
China to buy 150 helicopters from Poland's PZL Swidnik
http://www.sinodaily.com/2006/080227131934.8ix69ngq.html
China to buy 150 helicopters from Poland's PZL Swidnik
Russians will not fix IL-76 transport order. It is already too later for obvious reason - the order is due to complete last year '). China, of course, could buy or not buy from Russia all it wants - but other countries and suppliers are not any better or more reliably in that regard. At very least Russia dont cancel accepted orders due to imaginable "democracy" or "human rights" problems.
As for KA-50... it cant transport troops. Even Mi-28 is hardly suitable for that.
Either way, i'm sure relatively expensive, pimped-out attack helo is one of the least useful items China can buy.
As for MLRS... China have its own. May be somewhat worse - but here quantity is probably more important than quality.
Subs... hard to tell how good Chinese subs are, how well they weapons, sensors, etc progressed. Given recent purchases of russian frigates and subs, i dont think far enough. Here, contrary, quality is probably just as (or more) important as quantity.
China's MLRS seems to be quite okay, the bigger ones appear to sport internal INS for greater accuracy and can hit across the Straits. They have sold some to Turkey.
The PLA never bought a single thing Russian except for some Tors and Mi-171 helos. I do think the PLA should buy more Mi-171s though. Ka-28s and Ka-31s should be good for the PLAN.
What Russian frigate did China buy? Not one at all. You must be confusing it with India, that brought the Talwars aka Krivak III. China bought Sovremannies and improved Sovremannies that have Kashtans and even longer ranged Sunburns. The first two was good in helping to step the PLAN out of the Stone Age, but the latter two don't have the RCS reductions or the air defense capability of the modern Chinese destroyers and frigates like the Lanzhous and the Jiangkai IIs.
As for the subs, lets compare the Kilos to the Songs and Yuans. The Songs and Yuans are physically bigger---75m and 78m respectively against the Kilo's 66m. That means more capacity to hold things like batteries, sound proofing, sensors and command centers. I have not seen what is inside the most modern Kilos (the 636EM, which by the way only exists with China right now), but from the videos and photos, the Songs are definitely decked out with all sorts of workstation terminals and racks inside. The Songs and Yuans are equipped with passive flank sonars, which the Kilos don't have, and recently they're fitted with a new TAS on the tail (circa early 2007), something the Kilos don't seem to have also. And they don't have reliability problems firing their YJ-8x AshMs underwater. Also they're now equipped with the new wire guided Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo (though I would wish they got something like the Vodapod.)
Simply said, the requirements and tastes of the PLAN has changed. Even the four earlier Kilos China bought were all refitted inside China, despite Russia's offers to refit and upgrade them to the latest standard. Its not hard to imagine that these Kilos would be domesticized with local systems and weapons.
Simply said, although they have served their original mission well, the Kilos have outgrown their purpose, and if you need to sell a sub to the PLAN, you need to step it up.
The Amur/Lada is the SSK that the Russians plan to include passive flank sonars with. For small subs, the clue to that is moving the diving plane from the bow to the sail, where it won't interfere with flank sonars. However it has some issues with its trials for now. Also this sub remains to be quite small, and simply said the new Yuan-B is quite larger, both physically and displacement wise. So what's the point of you downgrading to a smaller sub? You need a Lada with a surface displacement of around 2400mt minimum rather than 1600mt just to meet what the PLAN has for their current requirements.
And frankly I don't think the Russians were willing to share their nuclear sub techs because the Chinese will use them on their SSBNs, which is not only meant as a deterrent to the US, but also the Russians (the Xia's original purpose wasn't the US in mind).
The PLA never bought a single thing Russian except for some Tors and Mi-171 helos. I do think the PLA should buy more Mi-171s though. Ka-28s and Ka-31s should be good for the PLAN.
What Russian frigate did China buy? Not one at all. You must be confusing it with India, that brought the Talwars aka Krivak III. China bought Sovremannies and improved Sovremannies that have Kashtans and even longer ranged Sunburns. The first two was good in helping to step the PLAN out of the Stone Age, but the latter two don't have the RCS reductions or the air defense capability of the modern Chinese destroyers and frigates like the Lanzhous and the Jiangkai IIs.
As for the subs, lets compare the Kilos to the Songs and Yuans. The Songs and Yuans are physically bigger---75m and 78m respectively against the Kilo's 66m. That means more capacity to hold things like batteries, sound proofing, sensors and command centers. I have not seen what is inside the most modern Kilos (the 636EM, which by the way only exists with China right now), but from the videos and photos, the Songs are definitely decked out with all sorts of workstation terminals and racks inside. The Songs and Yuans are equipped with passive flank sonars, which the Kilos don't have, and recently they're fitted with a new TAS on the tail (circa early 2007), something the Kilos don't seem to have also. And they don't have reliability problems firing their YJ-8x AshMs underwater. Also they're now equipped with the new wire guided Yu-6 heavyweight torpedo (though I would wish they got something like the Vodapod.)
Simply said, the requirements and tastes of the PLAN has changed. Even the four earlier Kilos China bought were all refitted inside China, despite Russia's offers to refit and upgrade them to the latest standard. Its not hard to imagine that these Kilos would be domesticized with local systems and weapons.
Simply said, although they have served their original mission well, the Kilos have outgrown their purpose, and if you need to sell a sub to the PLAN, you need to step it up.
The Amur/Lada is the SSK that the Russians plan to include passive flank sonars with. For small subs, the clue to that is moving the diving plane from the bow to the sail, where it won't interfere with flank sonars. However it has some issues with its trials for now. Also this sub remains to be quite small, and simply said the new Yuan-B is quite larger, both physically and displacement wise. So what's the point of you downgrading to a smaller sub? You need a Lada with a surface displacement of around 2400mt minimum rather than 1600mt just to meet what the PLAN has for their current requirements.
And frankly I don't think the Russians were willing to share their nuclear sub techs because the Chinese will use them on their SSBNs, which is not only meant as a deterrent to the US, but also the Russians (the Xia's original purpose wasn't the US in mind).
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Na they have competeing strategic goals in the region, therefore they will allways be rivals. The real quetion is were they will both realign post cold war. IMHO India will move into a US/Australian/Japanese alliance, simply becasue we are natural allies being liberalistic democracies with similar stratecgic goals, and China will move closer to Pakistan/Mynmar/possibly Moscow. The Russians will continue selling as much stuff as they can but i'm not sure were they will align in military terms, probably with PROC top counter the US. But PROC and India aligning would be unlikely, both want regional hedgemony and both are in the others way.
In certain circumstances- yes, in others-maybe not! The same goes for US & Russia. Pentagon Report Plays Down Chinese Military Threat
Alliances shift- just look what happened in the last century!
flashCanada
New Member
No!
But you may look at the relationship between Japan and US before 1945 and after then. Then you can see enemies can be allies too! It depends on the politics. China and India are two neighbour countries, they do not have such a big change of relationship. They have conflicts too, but not as servere as that of the Japan and US. So they could be allies too!
But you may look at the relationship between Japan and US before 1945 and after then. Then you can see enemies can be allies too! It depends on the politics. China and India are two neighbour countries, they do not have such a big change of relationship. They have conflicts too, but not as servere as that of the Japan and US. So they could be allies too!
There's alot of talk about China because of its population, but because of the 1 child policy, India is going to overtake China in population in 30 years.
Projections for 2050
1 India, 1,628m
2 China, 1,437m
3 United States, 420m
by 2050 India is by far the largest and it will continue to grow at a faster rate than China.
2 things that i see consistently with the Chinese dream. You wont be the largest economy. You need to be considerably bigger to exert influence like the US does.
When it comes to military size its all based on the economy. India has a bigger one and it has considerably way better relations with the rest of the world. Why does this matter? People will be willing to give tech to India, and not China.
Another point, US military might is being way underestimated here. It will take China more than 80 years to catch up, this is assuming the US continues progressing in terms of tech.
Projections for 2050
1 India, 1,628m
2 China, 1,437m
3 United States, 420m
by 2050 India is by far the largest and it will continue to grow at a faster rate than China.
2 things that i see consistently with the Chinese dream. You wont be the largest economy. You need to be considerably bigger to exert influence like the US does.
When it comes to military size its all based on the economy. India has a bigger one and it has considerably way better relations with the rest of the world. Why does this matter? People will be willing to give tech to India, and not China.
Another point, US military might is being way underestimated here. It will take China more than 80 years to catch up, this is assuming the US continues progressing in terms of tech.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
I have removed five off topic posts. Please stay on topic, gents!
Well most of the China high-tech warfare system are of western and Russian origin wheather China menaged to steal tehnology or pay for it they are still no able to develop and produce high quality stuff on its own. As EU does not want to lift arms embargo jet and most likely wont for quite sometime (it still trades with US more) China will have to rely on Russia tech no matter what or risk faling behind in modern weapon design.
Schumacher
New Member
Russia is already losing a big part of the Indian market to the Western firms. They're hoping to get the Chinese to pay higher price for the IL-76 but it's not working & unless they can better meet the PLA's tech requirements & sell cheaper, I don't see them making any sale.
There were some 'talk' of them selling further Sov cheaply to PLAN to settle some debts but that went nowhere. I think they'll actually need to pay PLAN to get them to get more of the old Sov to put it mildly.
Yes, thats why russians canceled IL-76/78 tankers deal
Russia now have enough money to NOT selling arms & technologies too cheap. Some countries get already used to such deals in the past 15 years - but situation changed. There will be no more full technology transfers for 500-600 millions $$ arms contract.