Relevents of Integrated Bridge System to the RMN logistic ships

[navalord]

Hello everyone...I'm student from National Defense University of Malaysia. I'm currently at my 2nd years of degree of nautical science course. Now I'm on my project entitled "Integrated Bridge System for KD MAHAWANGSA". As you know, KD MAHAWANGSA is a logistic support ship. I hope that you guys here can help me by giving advices and informations about this system. Your help I'm kindly appreciates. Hopefully I can get many informations for my research. The objectives of my research are to know is it suitable to replace the old bridge system on KD MAHAWANGSA with the Integrated Bridge System? and how? What is the best system that suitable with KD MAHAWANGSA? How much does it cost. Technical data of equipments and their life cycle cost? My research is not about improvement of armament but improvement in navigation and safety aspect. You also can give me some advices about advantages and disadvantages .You can give anything that you think is relate to my study. Thank you

 

[Systems Adict]

Navalord,

I've taken the step of copying my last post from the RMN thread, so that you have a baseline for discussions.

Hope you don't mind

Systems Adict



"I think that this will be a big project that will require you to do a lot of research, especially on-line, at various OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturers) websites.


Here are some links to start looking at for information...

http://www.raytheonmarine.de/highsea...s/IBSNaval.pdf

http://www.kelvinhughes.com/equipment.htm


Think about the layout of the equipment.

How will you group things / lay them out?

What systems do you have to include?

What systems do you not need/would be nice to have?

Do you have to go down the Military route ? What about the commercial equipment these companies offer ?? (costs may be cheaper !)

Have another look at the Raytheon site again (page 4 of the PDF), examine the black line drawing of the equipment layout. Think about why it has been done this way.



Some of the things you will have to consider in your design are in the text below...

General Ship operation :

Throttle control & Autopilot, Fuel management, ballast & fluid controls (Data inputs (pressures/temperatures/volumes & flows) to manage HP & LP Sea Water / Black & Grey Water systems / LP & HP Air/ Hotel Services including Fresh water & Domestic hot water), Alarms & warnings (Fire Fighting & Fire suppression / Door control & monitoring throughout the ship) Navigation & Warning lights (including the ability to switch from White to Red lights for sailing at night).

From a more Naval point of view...

Navigation Radar & it's requirements / capabilities (does it need inputs from GPS/DGPS, Gyro Compass & Magnetic compass as a back up??).

AIS / Echo Sounder / Magnetic Compass / GPS.

Do you require ECDIS (Integrated Marine chart systems that can be displayed / overlayed (electronically) with live radar pictures.

Your communications suite : V/UHF comms, GMDSS, Inmarsat B/C or Loran C, to replace older Decca/Transit navigator systems, Fax & satellite telephone, Voyage Data recorder (the spy on the bridge, as it can be set up to record all voice commands/orders, as well as data inputs from helm /throttle controls).

Finally, paper charts. Do you want the Navigator to have the facility to be facing fwd, looking at his chart, then look directly up & out a fwd bridge window ??


These are only SOME of the things you will have to take into account, (it's not a definitive list !).

You will also have to look at possibly how long the ship will be out of service while this work is being undertaken, (probably about 1 year !), & costs versus life left in the ship (will a ship that is say 15 years old, be able to last another 10-15 years in the new configuration / will it be worth while ?).


There are also other factors....

Structure constraints: Number of windows(which will affect the width of the consoles, height (the space below the floor & whether it will affect overall head clearance), height of the consoles & whether they will block some of the viewing area, systems that cannot be moved (possibly pipework from things like window washers & pre-wetting systems & whether they will affect the depth of the units & thus the available floor area within the bridge??), additional weight of all this equipment & whether the general structure can bear it / is strong enough.

Practical management / constraints:
Is there enough surplus power supply availability within the power generation system, never mind enough spare slots in existing fuse panels within the vicinity of the bridge.

Do you have the right power generation facilities? (115v AC / 24v DC / 115v - 400Hz supplies, rather than just 240v / 440v AC)

Cable runs & separation of specialist signal / supply cables, as well as actual space through transit glands in the cable runs.


This list is not everything, but should cover most of the ground that you may want to research / discuss with your lecturer.


At this point, I think it may be worth your while starting a new Topic / Thread (possibly in the General Military Defence section), as depending on how much information you want to research on this subject / your lecturers point of view, you may need to conduct a lot of discussions with others within this site.



I hope that this will help & not put you off undertaking the task.

Kindest regards,

Systems Adict


P.S.

...Have you considered writing to the RMN, going to Lemut Naval base to see if it's possible to get a tour of the bridge of the vessel your researching, as well as one of their newer vessels (the Meko's or one of the Lekiu's), while discussing / listening to their thoughts on what you're doing??

Nothing ventured, nothing gained...."

 

[navalord]

Tq systems adict..

From your point of view, is it possible to replace the original bridge to integrated bridge system? What's about wiring? Is there any ships that from other country replaced their old bridge into integrated bridge system? Can they synchronize with the other system ? You know that KD MAHAWANGSA has already in service about 25 years, is it a good decision to replace their bridge system to enhance her navigation capabilities?

I don't know how much it cost but it is 2nd problem..if you become RMN admiral, would you give the permission to replace that bridge to the new one? Is it relevance?

 

[alexsa]

There are IMO performance standards for intergrated bridge systems and most commercial manufacturers tend to provide the system as a complete unit.

http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=355

As such many products are a turn key consol that is pre wired and simply needs the necesary interface to power, propulsion control and steering as well as the assocaited systems. As radar, (and ARPA), ECDIS, AIS (in many case), Auto pilot (in many cases), Gyro and VTS interface (in some cases) are built in there are no intergratin woes. it is often more expensive to fiddle with the system than simply buy one of the shelf off the shelf that fits your needs, i.e:

http://www.km.kongsberg.com/KS/WEB/...F1D483785AD54752C1256F250029FDE3?OpenDocument

In some newer systems the GMDSS is incorprated and many newer systems are utlising, or looking to utilies intergrated displays which combine Radar (and ARPA), ECDIS and AIS into a single display. the systems fitted to many Euro RO-PAX vessels are equipped with such dispalys as they give a very good gods eye view (as far as you can get wiht COTS gear) of the naviagational and collision avoidance situation.

The relevance of intergating AIS is that it can provide details of traffic in relation to the charted location when they are not yet painting on radar.

There are many manufactures. suggest you google IBS and see what comes up, however, a major issue will be technical support. Again off the shelf from a major manufacturer is alwasy the best option in this regards.

Here is another one to ahve a look at:

http://www.l-3klein.com/navigation/ribs/bridgecontrol.pdf

 

[Systems Adict]

From your point of view, is it possible to replace the original bridge to integrated bridge system?

Yes, it would be possible.

What's about wiring? Is there any ships that from other country replaced their old bridge into integrated bridge system?

As I said in my rather long reply, the issues would be tying up the old systems into the new consoles.

This would require the current systems on the ship be be fully investigated, wiring connections detailed for each individual cable, specifying whether it carries voltage (& of what size), whether it is a signal cable, etc, etc.

This sort of task is usually undertaken where some company has ship "A", which is not being used for the role it was designed for & decides to make the ship do something different.

When it does this, it usually doesn't just replace the bridge, it takes out many older systems, replaces them with new ones, while adding things that the ship needs for it's new role.

Many 2nd / 3rd world countries have done this in the past with Warships that have been bought very cheaply after say 10-15 years service. They then conduct a "mid-life update" & continue to use these vessels for another 10 - 20 years.

Can they synchronize with the other system ?

As stated by Alexsa, some companies offer this as a service, where they provide a console with all it's internal services tried & tested & then INTEGRATE the new stuff to the existing systems / ships fit.

As I've mentioned above this can be a long process trying to match compatibility with old & new equipment. In doing this they may simply recommend that some systems just be ripped out & replaced, obvious things would probably be the Navigation Radar(s), certain comms equipment & more than likely, GPS / Echo sounder & Ships Log (so that inputs to the new system are all in the same data format / are 100% compatible.

You know that KD MAHAWANGSA has already in service about 25 years, is it a good decision to replace their bridge system to enhance her navigation capabilities?

This is not a decision that I would make lightly.

I feel that it would require a full structural hull survey, with the ship "out of the water". Other factors are whether there would be enough space for the equipment, whether the ships current services (power supply & generation) would be up to it, whether other components that will remain with the ship are up to the task, etc, etc.

But personally, I think it would NOT be the thing I would recommend. There are many other vessels out there that could be purchased, then converted, or even consider the prospect of building a new ship from scratch.[/quote]

I don't know how much it cost but it is 2nd problem..if you become RMN admiral, would you give the permission to replace that bridge to the new one? Is it relevance?

Yes, it is very relevant !

As an estimate, I would reckon that because of the costs of the new equipment, the support from the OEM & the time to complete the task it could cost anywhere between £10 M- £30 M (63 - 180 Million ringgits !!)

Do you think any RMN Admiral would sign off on that for a ship that is 25 years old, with maybe 5 - 10 years life left in it ??


Costs aside, I still think it is a wonderful project & will be a good exercise, which if done well, will get you a good score for your results.

Especially, if put together properly & fully researched, with facts, figures & references to back it all up.


I await any further comments & will attempt to assist where I can.

Systems Adict

 

[navalord]

tq systems adict..you're such a nice guy with great knowledges..i appreciate that..


I'll on board KD MAHAWANGSA in next semester for my sea practical about 6 months. so i think there are plenty of times for me to do research.Now I just have to collect as many information in website as I can.

you say that this is good research..even it's impossible to do that ( to change the old bridge into IBS .Even my lecturer want me to do this..he want to see the outcome and how I'll do to accomplish it.

systems adict..what about its life cycle cost?

 

[Preceptor]

Relocated thread given that it is dealing with the bridge(s) of naval vessels and thus not a "General" military/defence question. By all means plus continue the discussion it has been quite interesting.
-Preceptor

 

[Systems Adict]

Thanks for the move preceptor, my bad ! I suggested he put it in the general file, on a reply in the RMN thread....


Back to the subject at hand....


Through life support for an IBS, mmmmm.............. ??

Although, I've been involved in the install & some testing of them on a few naval vessels, this is a bit of a grey area for me, as I work mainly in the new build area of the business.

I know that when the negotiations take place (wrt the purchase costs), the OEM usually offers a detailed list of parts for spares & expected maintenance routines (with an associated parts list of COB(Carried On Board spares)). This list of parts & spares is usually based on experience from similar systems, over a period of time.

In the big picture, this is where the supplier make his money, as it's written into contracts that the OEM is sole point of contact for parts during the warranty period after delivery by the shipbuilder. This period can be as little as 1 year, but is usually 2, with an option to extend to 5 years. As you can guess figures are a closely guarded secret, due to commercial sensitivities, but vary on the time contracted (5 years being the most expensive).

Other factors influence the costs, as Naval vessels can take 3 to 5 years to get to the delivery stage from initial steel cutting. Obviously the parts have to be bought & installed on the ship & this again is another area where the OEM can make money, covering the period between install & ship handover / warranty start, which can be 2 to 3 years.

As mentioned above, these cost are negotiated prior to contract signature, as the OEM lists as many parts as possible (at times), even specifying parts which may never need replaced through the life of the equipment ! This is done as most shipbuilders / the end users do not wish to pay for 110% of the spares needed, as most modern equipment is quite reliable, so they par the list down to a more manageable size in their eyes (as the more spares they buy, the more it costs & the more space is required either on the ship, or in base stores).

As IBS equipment is becoming more complex due to the numerous new systems that are being added for various safety / regulatory reasons, the software is another area where the OEM can make specific demands on the contract.
This can include routine visits once a year / every 6 months to ensure that everything is working okay & to collect specific data embedded in the software, for analysis to improve the system. It can also include specific costs for call outs to faults & costs of any spares required. This can also be negotiated as a separate contract between OEM & End user, cutting out the shipbuilder (& his "costs")!


There are certain things which must also be understood about the software. Experience has shown me that many times the software has bugs in it. This is by no means done on purpose / for unscrupulous reasons, but is just the nature of software development.
Just like Microsoft or any of the big software houses, the product is constantly being developed, with newer versions of equipments incorporated into the IBS & therefore the interface software being design every 18 months to 2 years. This means that the software may not be 110% tested end to end, ensuring full compatibility, as this would take too long (& also pass additional costs onto the end-user).

It's also the case that most modern equipment connected to the IBS has it's own software which can at times play havoc with the system. Usage / loading of the equipment also puts wear & tear on the components, which can effect how the parts operate, changing tolerances over time. This becomes an issue when the software is looking for a specifics value (voltage / pressure reading), or number of operations in a specified time. The equipment may also have independent self monitoring routines built into it & may have tighter or lower tolerances than the IBS software monitoring the equipment!
All of this points to a the reliance on the software being supported, & from all of the above, you'll hopefully understand the importance of having OEM support.


Getting back to costs...

In a rough order of costs, if the equipment costs "X" million, then it's likely that the warranty / support costs for the 5 year period (after delivery) are of the value of "X" + another 50 to 75% of "X" (i.e. nearly double the value of the equipment).

Again, other factors can affect this value. Whether the shipbuilder is a "middle-man" between the OEM & the end user, whether the shipbuilder is ALSO the OEM, whether you have a fleet/batch of ships that will require the same work done, whether the OEM is hoping on opening a route into a previously ignored or new area of business with a foreign nation, etc, etc.

What I can say is that the OEM's are getting better at working out these costs & are helping to bring them down (a little), as more systems are introduced. The main target of IBS systems is for vessels like Ferries or commercial ships, as these vessels are more liable to be used on a regular basis / operate for longer periods. This is a form of testing, which can help to identify which parts are /are not required on a regular basis.


I know that there are a lot of comments & facts, with few figures mentioned, but the figures change from supplier to supplier, & vessel type to vessel type, so there are no real hard & fast figures I can quote. Experience has led me to the rough equation above, but again this can be affected by numerous factors, not least the actual currency exchange rate at the time of contract signature.

I hope that some others here can corroborate the equation from their experiences, to give you a rough order of costs.

Hope this all helps your studies...


Systems Adict

 

[navalord]

hi systems adict

how r u mr systems adict....can u explain to me about helicopters that being use as force multiply for surface warfare...soorry because ask u in this thread...hope u don mind

 

[Systems Adict]

Greetings Navalord !

I'm going to help you make YOU answer your own question....!


Firstly, look at & read this page from Wiki...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_multiplier





Now that you've read that here's some more to think about.


Think of a Naval helicopter, say a Super Lynx, Sea Hawk or NH90, for example.

Now, put it on a ship from Navy "A", that has sufficient flight deck facilities to operate it, maintain it & arm it. The ship should have the ability to embark "special forces" & the helo and ship must also have "data-link" capabilities.



Now put the ship "in the middle" of a circle of it's operational capability
(a circle of say 2,500 Nm radius), along with one or two other ships from Navy A, with similar capabilities, but not all with a helicopter fitted.


NOW....

With this information...


How can you use the helicopter ? (list the tasks that you can use the helo for)


What operations can it perform? (list the capabilities of what it can do)


Does it mean that the Helicopter is "tied" to the ship, or is it free to go off & do other tasks ?



Answer these questions, while putting it into a scenario where "Country A" is having border problems with "Country B".



Think of how Country B would think / feel, if Country A had these capabilities & Country B did not....



Now, can you answer your own question ??


Post your thoughts here for others to "mark" for you.


Systems Adict :nutkick

 

[aneep]

interesting topic navalord, i will be watching this thread

 

[navalord]

huhu...people..pls help me...

hello..can you explain on how IBS will be operate? How all the equipments like multi function consoles,data distribution, gyro compass system, autopilot and steering control, AIS,EM-log,GPS system, DGPS, magnetic compass, voyage data recorder, rudder position indicator system, meteorology equipments, bridge consoles for third party equipment being integrate in one system? i got lot of resistance to find many information. So people who are expert in this kind of biz,u may help me..

 

[Salty Dog]

Sperry Marine (Northrup Grumman) have nice IBS packages. Have a look at their brochure:

http://www.sperrymarine.northropgrumman.com/Admin/Downloads/61/Product%20Brochure.pdf

 

[Systems Adict]

hello..can you explain on how IBS will be operate? How all the equipments like multi function consoles,data distribution, gyro compass system, autopilot and steering control, AIS,EM-log,GPS system, DGPS, magnetic compass, voyage data recorder, rudder position indicator system, meteorology equipments, bridge consoles for third party equipment being integrate in one system? i got lot of resistance to find many information.

Navalord, greetings !

To understand these "Integrated Systems", you have to look at the individual components.

Start logically, taking each system at a time, looking at how this system operates as a stand-alone piece of equipment.

Next look at how these equipments are organised on a standard bridge

(e.g. the Navigator has a Radar display next to which may be fitted a digital display compass repeater, there may also be pitch & roll information displayed through this equipment by a few button presses, or an adjacent GPS readout on say a Decca navigator or on an independent DGPS / Loran 'C' display, on the other side of the bridge is his paper chart table)

Think about what "services" the radar display needs to help the picture be accurate? (North marker display, ships heading information, lat/long data, ships speed, depth of water below the hull, etc, etc).

Many of these pieces of "data" come in a particular format (RS 232 / NMEA 0183, etc). Quite often it is the same format, allowing this data to be "shared". This fact will help you in some respects, but not all equipment uses this format of data to relay information to the various equipments on the bridge. Some have very specialised feeds e.g. 115v or 440v @ 400Hz for Gyro Synchro data.


Radar video data can be "collated" from 2 or 3 different sources, sent to a common processing rack, & fed via 1 multi core cable to each of the various displays.

This can also be done with other feeds (gyro compass / magnetic compass, DGPS, etc) & can be compared to a computer network & it's servers in an office building.

It may be easier to draw this as a series of circles (1 for each equipment), showing what feeds are required from the various, using different coloured lines. (look back to page 3 of the Sperry PDF, to see the "block & line" drawing showing how they convey this message).

Much of the information you are looking for in this respect is not explained in depth, as it is pretty much logical & common sense, e.g. Equipment 'X' needs feeds from systems 'A', 'B' & 'C', as well as a 3 phase 115V power supply to operate.

Having researched this data from the various links that have been posted above & looking at the pictures within the various PDF's, you should be able to understand the ergonomics of these "Integrated Consoles" (why particular displays / operating buttons are grouped together).

I hope by now you will see that it is not so difficult to understand that many people who wish to have such a system fitted to their ship select a manufacturer who has already done all the work on integration & produces "tried & tested" systems, quite often containing many different pieces of technology / systems that they manufacture & sell as stand alone equipments.

I await you comments / questions....

Systems Adict