The defective Kilo-Klub-club

Falstaff

New Member
It's widespread news these days that India rejected the SINDHUVIJAY because all of its land attack Klubs couldn't find their targets (can be read e.g. here and here). The venerable marineforum (German) adds that the Indian navy is not satisfied with the older Klub variants too as they repeatedly missed their targets in exercises. They also say that similar things are said to have happened with Chinese Klubs, although no details are available at this point. At least it seems the Indians are not the only ones to encounter problems with the Kilo-Klub-combination.

So the question is, is the feared SS-N-27 not so fearsome at all? Or can't the Kilo's weapon control system handle it? (And what's wrong with the Russians, they seem to have problems with more complex weapon systems, remember Krasnopol?)
 

The Engineer

New Member
Gyroscopes

Actually there are no problems with the Klub missile. The problem is with the fire control system on the Kilo submarines. The below article “Way Off Target” explains the problem better than I could. All new weapon systems have defects and/or design flaws. These problems are usually worked out in the manufacturer's country's armed forces before they get exported. Russian manufacturers don't have that advantage since the Russian armed forces haven't been buying much equipment for almost two decades. Virtually all new systems go directly to the export market where the problems show up. In my opinion the Russians have an excuse for some of their problems. If only they would admit there are problems and fix them in a timely manner, then they wouldn't have such a PR problem.


”Way Off Target” by Sandeep Unnithan, Times of India

While the ship-launched missile was inducted without problems, the navy has been frantically trying to rectify the defect in the submarine-launched variant over the past three years without success. The Klub missiles were successfully test-fired in the Baltic Sea in 2001 and 2002. The problems surfaced when the missiles were test fired in Indian waters: minutes before reaching its target, the missile wobbled before diving into the water."

A detailed analysis of the missile recently carried out by Russian experts revealed that the problem was in the Kilo class submarine.

Every mobile military platform has, what is called, a gyroscope - a device which spins at high speed and tells a platform its roll, pitch and yaw—basically where it is heading, how its motion is changing and its axis of stabilization. A gyroscope which stabilizes the missile in flight is also the heart of a missile's on-board guidance system. Since the gyro cannot be kept switched on all the time, the coordinates are pre-fed to the missile from the gyro during pre-launch checks. When the Klub missile breaches the water surface, its gyro tells the missile its position and points itself in the direction of the target. However, a critical time-lag in the interface between the submarine's gyro and the missile was pre-fed the wrong coordinates.

So, when the missile flew over the sea surface, the guidance coordinates fooled it into believing it was actually flying at an incline. So the missile's onboard gyroscope stabilized itself. This battle between the onboard coordinates and gyroscope continued several times and the maneuvers exhausted the missile battery leading to a complete power loss.

New replacement gyros for the navy's submarines are now among the top of the list of items India desperately needs from Russia and the issue has already been raised at several high-level meetings.
 

funtz

New Member
Exactly how old is that report?

Why is Russia not rectifying the problem? After all it is so obvious that the gyroscope are to be blamed. Are they Waiting for more money to fix it?

This is not the first time India has refused to even accept the delivery of some Russian equipment.

A detailed analysis of the missile recently carried out by Russian experts revealed that the problem was in the Kilo class submarine.
What kind of experts will let the situation get so bad that the Indian Navy has to refuse the upgraded (in this case defective upgrades).
 

onslaught

New Member
Fixing a missile is different than fixing a sub. That's not to mention that the kilo is older than the klub missile and wasn't originally designed to carry the missile. So if they are trying to fix the problem, the Russians either lack the funds, or are just having difficulty. IMO, I think it's money problems. But the Klub was tested a while ago with the Kilo and it worked fine then.
 

funtz

New Member
- If they are having problems with the missile system, they should accept the problem and start to fix it, they were going to deliver the submarine to the Indian Navy with out fixing the problem, that is what the "Indian Navy refuses upgraded submarine" report suggets.

- If they were trying to get more money out of the Indian Navy, about time the russian firms started quoting the real price of these deals upfront instead of acting like criminals who con people, sadly that is what the reports make them look like, or te worst people in the field of estimation.

- If the Kulbs have worked on Kilos before and that too in a manner which can be called "fine", then what on earth is this thread about?
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Actually there are no problems with the Klub missile. The problem is with the fire control system on the Kilo submarines. The below article “Way Off Target” explains the problem better than I could. All new weapon systems have defects and/or design flaws. These problems are usually worked out in the manufacturer's country's armed forces before they get exported. Russian manufacturers don't have that advantage since the Russian armed forces haven't been buying much equipment for almost two decades. Virtually all new systems go directly to the export market where the problems show up. In my opinion the Russians have an excuse for some of their problems. If only they would admit there are problems and fix them in a timely manner, then they wouldn't have such a PR problem.


”Way Off Target” by Sandeep Unnithan, Times of India

While the ship-launched missile was inducted without problems, the navy has been frantically trying to rectify the defect in the submarine-launched variant over the past three years without success. The Klub missiles were successfully test-fired in the Baltic Sea in 2001 and 2002. The problems surfaced when the missiles were test fired in Indian waters: minutes before reaching its target, the missile wobbled before diving into the water."

A detailed analysis of the missile recently carried out by Russian experts revealed that the problem was in the Kilo class submarine.

Every mobile military platform has, what is called, a gyroscope - a device which spins at high speed and tells a platform its roll, pitch and yaw—basically where it is heading, how its motion is changing and its axis of stabilization. A gyroscope which stabilizes the missile in flight is also the heart of a missile's on-board guidance system. Since the gyro cannot be kept switched on all the time, the coordinates are pre-fed to the missile from the gyro during pre-launch checks. When the Klub missile breaches the water surface, its gyro tells the missile its position and points itself in the direction of the target. However, a critical time-lag in the interface between the submarine's gyro and the missile was pre-fed the wrong coordinates.

So, when the missile flew over the sea surface, the guidance coordinates fooled it into believing it was actually flying at an incline. So the missile's onboard gyroscope stabilized itself. This battle between the onboard coordinates and gyroscope continued several times and the maneuvers exhausted the missile battery leading to a complete power loss.

New replacement gyros for the navy's submarines are now among the top of the list of items India desperately needs from Russia and the issue has already been raised at several high-level meetings.
that's what the Russians will tell you. This missile has serious problems as far as I'm concerned. On theory, it could be the most lethal missile out there. But in practice, it's just not mature enough yet. There is a reason that China has not put this thing on any platforms other than the 636Ms. Even the 4 older Kilos are not upgraded to fire it.
 

The Engineer

New Member
Incomplete Article

I want to apologize. When I posted the article "Way Off Course" I missed a couple of paragraphs in the beginning and at the end. Here is the full article. Also, the article was published on July 30, 2007.

"Way Off Course", Sandeep Unnithan, India Today, 7/30/2007

It was billed as the primary strike weapon of the Indian Navy’s submarine arm—a lethal undersea missile which would pop out of water, streak over the waves before spitting out a supersonic dart armed with 250 kg of explosives to obliterate its target. Except, seven years since it was inducted into service, the Russian-built Klub sub-launched Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (ASCM) has never hit a target in Indian waters.

Several defence officials have revealed that in numerous test launches since its induction, the missile, fired from a submarine’s torpedo tube, had harmlessly splashed down into the water like a dead duck. The non-performing missile, which seriously undermines naval defence preparedness, is the latest in the litany of woes against Russia which includes a two-year delay in the refit of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya and a demand for a 10 per cent cost escalation in defence deals.

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) database, India ordered 175 of these missiles for its warships and submarines in 1998 for roughly Rs 1,750 crore, receiving them between 2001 and 2006. The navy, however, has still not broken its silence. “Sharing of information on performance or efficacy of such a weapon system would constitute a serious breach of security and is detrimental to national interest,” said naval spokesperson Captain Vinay Garg. It is also silent on the crucial question as to why the glitch, detected a few years ago, has not yet been fixed. Seven of the navy’s fleet of 10 Kilos have been equipped to fire the missile. Cruise missiles are among the most lethal weapons of a submarine, because unlike torpedoes which have speeds of not more than 70 kmph, they travel at speeds of over 900 kmph. A submarine armed with a 200-km range missile can perform a ‘sea denial’ mission in a radius of 400-km. Pakistan acquired this capability in the 1980s when it retrofitted its undersea fleet with the US-supplied Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

The Indian Navy’s attempts to acquire this capability were realised in the mid-‘90s when its Soviet-built Kilo class submarines (acquired between 1986 and 2000) were sent to Russian shipyards for mid-life refits. It decided to equip them with the submarine-launched variant of the 220-km range Klub anti-ship cruise missile and India became the first customer for the yet untested missile. The missile, designated SS-N-27 ‘Sizzler’ by NATO, had already been ordered in 1998 for three Russian-built Talwar class frigates.

While the ship-launched missile was inducted without problems, the navy has been frantically trying to rectify the defect in the submarine-launched variant over the past three years without success. The Klub missiles were successfully test-fired in the Baltic Sea in 2001 and 2002. The problems surfaced when the missiles were test fired in Indian waters: minutes before reaching its target, the missile wobbled before diving into the water. A detailed analysis of the missile recently carried out by Russian experts revealed that the problem was in the Kilo class submarine.

Every mobile military platform has, what is called, a gyroscope—a device which spins at high speed and tells a platform its roll, pitch and yaw—basically where it is heading, how its motion is changing and its axis of stabilisation. A gyroscope which stabilises the missile in flight is also the heart of a missile’s on-board guidance system. Since the gyro cannot be kept switched on all the time, the coordinates are pre-fed to the missile from the gyro during pre-launch checks. When the Klub missile breaches the water surface, its gyro tells the missile its position and points itself in the direction of the target. However, a critical time-lag in the interface between the submarine’s gyro and the missile, was pre-fed the wrong coordinates. So, when the missile flew over the sea surface, the guidance coordinates fooled it into believing it was actually flying at an incline. So the missile’s onboard gyroscope stabilised itself. This battle between the onboard coordinates and gyroscope continued several times and the manoeuvers exhausted the missile battery leading to a complete power loss.

New replacement gyros for the navy’s submarines are now among the top of the list of items India desperately needs from Russia and the issue has already been raised at several high-level meetings. The current problems with the firing platform, however, have placed under a cloud on the efficacy of more purchases: the navy has already ordered more variants of the missiles. In 2006, SIPRI says, India ordered 28 land-attack versions of the Klub missiles for Rs 844 crore ($182 million).

The Indo-Russian BrahMos corporation is retrofitting one Kilo class submarine with the indigenously built 300-km range supersonic cruise missile. Yet the retrofit is a complicated procedure and is, therefore, unlikely to be repeated on the other submarines. Till then, the navy says it has little option but to swim or sink with the Klub.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
tphuang, do you have any more infos about the Klub-problems in the PLAN?
The PLAN list of issues include:

1) Falls short on range
2) Defensive System for erratic manuevers doesn't work
3) Booster stage between subsonic and super sonic can fail

No way to know for sure though, because the PLAN is developing their own missiles that will compete, so they could just be putting out bad stuff against a potential competitor weapon system.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
The PLAN list of issues include:


No way to know for sure though, because the PLAN is developing their own missiles that will compete, so they could just be putting out bad stuff against a potential competitor weapon system.
Well, as of now, we got another consecutive client Indian Navy in this case that is also complaining. So must be something wrong in with the missile.

Another 6 months wait before the trials restart + Time of trials to complete.

I am surprised at the FACT that as of today, there is not a single Indian Navy KILO Submarine that can fire an anti ship missile.

Do any other Indian Navy Submarine have this capabilty or none have this capability as of today?

(Please, I live in present so I need present facts and figures)
 

kay_man

New Member
The PLAN list of issues include:

1) Falls short on range
2) Defensive System for erratic manuevers doesn't work
3) Booster stage between subsonic and super sonic can fail

No way to know for sure though, because the PLAN is developing their own missiles that will compete, so they could just be putting out bad stuff against a potential competitor weapon system.

dude, the info is only patially right and partially exagerated.
the klub-n missiles only failed to hit some targets accurately at their MAXIMUM range, but i hit targets at sub-maximim range with pinpoint accuracy. thts the fact.
 

kay_man

New Member
Well, as of now, we got another consecutive client Indian Navy in this case that is also complaining. So must be something wrong in with the missile.

Another 6 months wait before the trials restart + Time of trials to complete.

I am surprised at the FACT that as of today, there is not a single Indian Navy KILO Submarine that can fire an anti ship missile.

Do any other Indian Navy Submarine have this capabilty or none have this capability as of today?

(Please, I live in present so I need present facts and figures)
errrrrrrr.
only partially right again. what u say would have been true a few years back, not today

the indian kilos have been undergoing extensive refit in russia and they can fire antiship missiles as of now (the upgraded ones )

as a matter of fact 2 subs have been already delivered back by russia.

just type " latest news on indian kilos" in google and the info is there,........thts what i did.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
errrrrrrr.
only partially right again. what u say would have been true a few years back, not today

the indian kilos have been undergoing extensive refit in russia and they can fire antiship missiles as of now (the upgraded ones )

as a matter of fact 2 subs have been already delivered back by russia.

just type " latest news on indian kilos" in google and the info is there,........thts what i did.
While the ship-launched missile was inducted without problems, the navy has been frantically trying to rectify the defect in the submarine-launched variant over the past three years without success. The Klub missiles were successfully test-fired in the Baltic Sea in 2001 and 2002. The problems surfaced when the missiles were test fired in Indian waters: minutes before reaching its target, the missile wobbled before diving into the water. A detailed analysis of the missile recently carried out by Russian experts revealed that the problem was in the Kilo class submarine.
Taken from post number 8 dated 30th of July 2007.

They were refitted but the problems were never rectified. And the submarine with rectified problem was also refused for delivery as per the latest news.

Do you must argue without supporting it by giving links ?
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
dude, the info is only patially right and partially exagerated.
the klub-n missiles only failed to hit some targets accurately at their MAXIMUM range, but i hit targets at sub-maximim range with pinpoint accuracy. thts the fact.
If it is a FACT then support it by giving links please.
 

kams

New Member
Another 6 months wait before the trials restart + Time of trials to complete.

I am surprised at the FACT that as of today, there is not a single Indian Navy KILO Submarine that can fire an anti ship missile.
FACT as of today, none of the Indian submarines can fire anti-ship missile. You see Kilo's were fitted with Land attack version of Klub-S.
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
FACT as of today, none of the Indian submarines can fire anti-ship missile. You see Kilo's were fitted with Land attack version of Klub-S.
Please support your statement with links. What anti ship missiles do Indian Submarines carry if any at all ?

I believe the forum rules state the same. :confused:
 

kams

New Member
Please support your statement with links. What anti ship missiles do Indian Submarines carry if any at all ?

I believe the forum rules state the same. :confused:
You can look up Hindu reports. Initially it was believed that first of the Kilo was equipped with 3M54E and rest would be fitted with 3M14E missiles. However after tracking the news reports from 2000 onwards, it was concluded that only 3M14E are installed.

One of the latest reports say this,

Navy's recently upgraded Russian Kilo class submarines are armed with shore strike missiles.
source

Oh BTW we don't consider news paper reports as FACTS, we track those reports over years and draw conclusions. If all reports are to be believed as facts we can draw some pretty interesting conclusions.;)
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
One of the latest reports say this,

Navy's recently upgraded Russian Kilo class submarines are armed with shore strike missiles.

source
How Ironic. These are the same missiles that are defective and the topic of this very thread. :eek:nfloorl:

Please support your statements by giving links that Indian Submarines are equipped with anti ship missiles. Waiting...
 

kams

New Member
How Ironic. These are the same missiles that are defective and the topic of this very thread. :eek:nfloorl:

Please support your statements by giving links that Indian Submarines are equipped with anti ship missiles. Waiting...
Err when and where did I say that Indian submarines are equipped with anti-ship misiles?

This is what I wrote..

FACT as of today, none of the Indian submarines can fire anti-ship missile. You see Kilo's were fitted with Land attack version of Klub-S.
Please clarify what you are asking me to do. :unknown
 

Aliph Ahmed

Banned Member
Err when and where did I say that Indian submarines are equipped with anti-ship misiles?


Please clarify what you are asking me to do. :unknown
So as of today, is there ANY Indian Submarine that can fire an antiship missile? If yes then which one and support it by link.
 
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