F/A-22: To Fly High or Get its Wings Clipped

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The USAF/USN requires a new fighter aircraft to replace the F-15A/B/C/D model fighter and a new multi-role fighter to replace the F-16/F/A-18.

The USAF developed the F-22A through the ATF program which can be read about plenty of places online. The need was expected to counter the increasingly capable Soviet Union. Other "requirements" are being discussed now, but unfortunately the USAF has been a bit of a victim of it's own success in my opinion, by dominating so extensively over the past 30-40 years, they are now finding it somewhat difficult to buy the "shiny toys" the "fighter mafia" want for the new generation.
Thank you mate.

Hence the branding of the F-22 as an air dominance fighter vice air superiority fighter.

I've also read elsewhere the F-22 replaces the F-117 which is due to retire in 2008. This means the F-22 needs to fulfill the mission requirements of the F-117, which also implies the F-22 has deep strike characteristics the orginal F-15 may not have had.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Thank you mate.

Hence the branding of the F-22 as an air dominance fighter vice air superiority fighter.

I've also read elsewhere the F-22 replaces the F-117 which is due to retire in 2008. This means the F-22 needs to fulfill the mission requirements of the F-117, which also implies the F-22 has deep strike characteristics the orginal F-15 may not have had.
At most it's a partial replacement as the F-22 won't have the LGB self-designating capability for quite a while, if ever...

Personally I think it's replacing it, because it's the only LO manned tactical platform they have in-service at present...

It also won't be "penetrating all that "deep" either, without AAR backup, based on it's internal fuel load...
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
At most it's a partial replacement as the F-22 won't have the LGB self-designating capability for quite a while, if ever...

Personally I think it's replacing it, because it's the only LO manned tactical platform they have in-service at present...

It also won't be "penetrating all that "deep" either, without AAR backup, based on it's internal fuel load...
It doesnt need selff designateing LGB capability to fulfill the well defended HVT strike role of the F-117, a Mark 83 JDAM does that perfectly well, due to the fact that strategic HVT's are rarely moveing (i.e. C4ISR). The only major difference i can see is the inability to carry the Mark 84 warhead internally. As for the range issue, well all USAF assets are dependand on AAR, notably for deep strike. AFAIK the F-22A has a much smaller RCS (order of magnitude) than the F-117, but ofcource that is just public conjecture.
 

gncantonio

New Member
hello did anyone heard to talk about a new training area for F-22 near LAGES AZORES FIELD.
In Portugal the press is full of knews about that.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
It doesnt need selff designateing LGB capability to fulfill the well defended HVT strike role of the F-117, a Mark 83 JDAM does that perfectly well, due to the fact that strategic HVT's are rarely moveing (i.e. C4ISR). The only major difference i can see is the inability to carry the Mark 84 warhead internally. As for the range issue, well all USAF assets are dependand on AAR, notably for deep strike. AFAIK the F-22A has a much smaller RCS (order of magnitude) than the F-117, but ofcource that is just public conjecture.
But you are then giving up an autonomous targetting capability (relying of course on non-jammed GPS signals, just cause they haven't been effectively targetted yet doesn't mean they won't or can't...) a "re" targetting capability "in the air" (limited though that might be) along with the moving target capability that laser guidance provides and GPS/INS doesn't.

"Dual mode" (or even "tri-mode") targetting capability is the way weapons of the future are heading. The F-22 may be upgraded to suit this, may not.

On top of which, the hardened penetrator bombs needed for "hardened bunkers" are 2000lbs class BLU-109's...

Now whilst I'm sure the US can work around this, capability gaps WILL exist and the ability to do these missions with a tactical LO aircraft won't exist until the F-35 come on line.

Which is why I say the F-22 is only a partial replacement.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
But you are then giving up an autonomous targetting capability (relying of course on non-jammed GPS signals, just cause they haven't been effectively targetted yet doesn't mean they won't or can't...) a "re" targetting capability "in the air" (limited though that might be) along with the moving target capability that laser guidance provides and GPS/INS doesn't.
I wonder if this capability was a trade-off with the F-22 design. The F-117 main and probaby only mission is precision bombing whilst the F-22 must also to fulfill an air superiority role. The F-117 was never intended to fight other aircraft.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
But you are then giving up an autonomous targetting capability (relying of course on non-jammed GPS signals, just cause they haven't been effectively targetted yet doesn't mean they won't or can't...) a "re" targetting capability "in the air" (limited though that might be) along with the moving target capability that laser guidance provides and GPS/INS doesn't.

"Dual mode" (or even "tri-mode") targetting capability is the way weapons of the future are heading. The F-22 may be upgraded to suit this, may not.
The new gen PGM's may indeed be Laser/gps/ins guided (Laser JDAM and the new Paveway) and F-22A will need an internally carried targeting pod (which i doubt will be much of a problem) to take full advantage of their capability. But again in the current circumstances the vast majority of the F117's "bread and butter" strategic HVT's are static, so laser guidence is not needed for these.

On top of which, the hardened penetrator bombs needed for "hardened bunkers" are 2000lbs class BLU-109's...
As i said the inability to carry the Mk 84 warhead or its equivelent internally is the only major capability difference between the two in the strategic HVT strike role. However such weapons can be carried by the B2 in large numbers. Now a B2 wont have the flexibility of of an F117 simply becasue it is useually based in CONUS or Diego Garciea (i.e. outside the theater), however hardened targets that can not be dealt with by a mark 83 are both relatively few and far between and static. Therefore ceeding this role to the B2 should not have any noticeably adverce effects.

Now whilst I'm sure the US can work around this, capability gaps WILL exist and the ability to do these missions with a tactical LO aircraft won't exist until the F-35 come on line.

Which is why I say the F-22 is only a partial replacement.
Fair enough, there will be some missions that the F-22A can not undertake that the F-117 could. However the majority of the nighthawks missions can be handled by the F-22A which should be both more survivable and achieve better sortie rates.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
But again in the current circumstances the vast majority of the F117's "bread and butter" strategic HVT's are static, so laser guidence is not needed for these.
Thats only because there was a development disconnect between the the need to maintain the F-117 and the development of new guided munitions.

The B2's are currently being looked at for wiring for MTK SDB's because they've passed the concept tests (they've been doing tests for the last 3 years)

It means that B2's can now hunt mobile targets. It also means that any other platform able to carry an SDB will become a viable hunter/carrier as well.

The issue has been a lockstep one - not a platform relevance issue. However, F-117 is no longer relevant as current weaps tech and LO management issues mean that it's a boutique platform with nowhere to go.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Thats only because there was a development disconnect between the the need to maintain the F-117 and the development of new guided munitions.

The B2's are currently being looked at for wiring for MTK SDB's because they've passed the concept tests (they've been doing tests for the last 3 years)

It means that B2's can now hunt mobile targets. It also means that any other platform able to carry an SDB will become a viable hunter/carrier as well.

The issue has been a lockstep one - not a platform relevance issue. However, F-117 is no longer relevant as current weaps tech and LO management issues mean that it's a boutique platform with nowhere to go.
I wasnt aware MTK SDB II's were anywere near operational yet. The yanks must be fast-tracking a few programmes. 500/1000lbs of HE allways seemed excessive when targeting MT's to me anyway. SDB II's use a IR terminal seeker dont they, so no laser is nesisary?
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
U.S. Air force sends Congress $18.75 billion wish list.

The U.S. Air Force will send congress a list that has more funding for more aircraft than the Pentagon has funnded. These include 4 more F-22s in addition to the 20 already planned plus long lead items for 24 more F-22s for 2010. It also includes more C-17s beyond the original 190 planed because some of the C-5s are too old to be upgraded. This is a welcome step for the USAF to replace its aging fleet. This wish list which Congress will review will help shape up the final 2009 defense budget for the USAF.

Below is a link if you want to read more about the article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSN1117876520080212
 

neil

New Member
The U.S. Air Force will send congress a list that has more funding for more aircraft than the Pentagon has funnded. These include 4 more F-22s in addition to the 20 already planned plus long lead items for 24 more F-22s for 2010. It also includes more C-17s beyond the original 190 planed because some of the C-5s are too old to be upgraded. This is a welcome step for the USAF to replace its aging fleet. This wish list which Congress will review will help shape up the final 2009 defense budget for the USAF.

Below is a link if you want to read more about the article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSN1117876520080212
This is really good news! I know this doesnt mean the USAF will get these planes, but it does mean they have a better chance..

Guess the new presidents thinking(whoever that will be) will have a huge impact on all this.
 

lozza

New Member
Apologies if this is off thread or allready out their!

Read the other day, on a Military news service the DOD wants to cap the F22 at 187 planes. And without new funding the project will start winding down production of F22, from end of 2008 and wrap up by 2011. However USAF fighting for many more planes around 380 and with 1000 suppliers in 44 States it is a political ball. Did see the first mention of dropping the export ban for friendly countries like Australia and Japan and it was mentioned in that order, still probably just another ploy by certain USA people to keep the thing in production.
Here's hoping though
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Apologies if this is off thread or allready out their!

Read the other day, on a Military news service the DOD wants to cap the F22 at 187 planes. And without new funding the project will start winding down production of F22, from end of 2008 and wrap up by 2011. However USAF fighting for many more planes around 380 and with 1000 suppliers in 44 States it is a political ball. Did see the first mention of dropping the export ban for friendly countries like Australia and Japan and it was mentioned in that order, still probably just another ploy by certain USA people to keep the thing in production.
Here's hoping though
I'm sure there are strong lobbies to keep the F-22 production line open. The US lawmakers have a tendency to "add" aircraft rather than "cut". Still there may be a play between the F-22 and F-35 programs.
 

Pro'forma

New Member
QUOTE: lozza

Systematic, long problems lie everywhere.
Not from the days of WW2, have all citizens understood to get down
troublemakers. All over the world the defence budgets are frustratingly
under willingness of really make a changing efforst to global generation gap.

General-purpose of continuous technological proceeding(s) is
at its best with military.

May come again too late, as always, to notice where are truly real
achievements to born to stay. Hindsight is one of problems of our days.
Not the last user suffering is military. As Iozza recognizes with F/A 22.

This can look little out topic; but basic general knowledge of
defending life might be a good subject to add with graduating lectures.
With educational programme under Department of education
( Ministry of Education ).

Back to topic.

It is not governmental play-game to fight for technological gap. Even not
with military.
We are not in anywhere flying higher, if we start going backward
inexcusably - time.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
I'm sure there are strong lobbies to keep the F-22 production line open. The US lawmakers have a tendency to "add" aircraft rather than "cut". Still there may be a play between the F-22 and F-35 programs.
Is it too much to ask for to have the full orders of both the F-22 and F-35?
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Is it too much to ask for to have the full orders of both the F-22 and F-35?
Probably not. However, politics and politicians are never a given and difficult to figure out, just like trying to find which way the financial markets are headed!
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Unfortunately, the US cannot afford more F-22s at $200 million an aircraft, so the USAF will have to settle for aircraft that run around $100 million or so. Not many nations will have 180 interceptors, much less over 1,000 F-35s. The simple truth is in the eyes of Congress and the government the US has too many aircraft as is. Especially when the US needs to replace its fleet of tankers and transport aircraft.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Unfortunately, the US cannot afford more F-22s at $200 million an aircraft, so the USAF will have to settle for aircraft that run around $100 million or so. Not many nations will have 180 interceptors, much less over 1,000 F-35s. The simple truth is in the eyes of Congress and the government the US has too many aircraft as is. Especially when the US needs to replace its fleet of tankers and transport aircraft.
Yes the the U.S. does need to replace its tanker and transport aircraft but they need to replace its fighters more than ever! I don't get how they think support aircraft is more important than combat aircraft. Now don't get me wrong but in order to be a superpower we need support aircraft, but how are we going to be a superpower with no combat aircraft? Then the support aircraft are useless.

Support aircraft are very important but fighters and bombers are even more important plus support aircraft don't wear out as fast.

The U.S. can afford more F-22s they just don't want to pay for it. Plus the more F-22s you buy then the lower the price will be.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Yes the the U.S. does need to replace its tanker and transport aircraft but they need to replace its fighters more than ever! I don't get how they think support aircraft is more important than combat aircraft. Now don't get me wrong but in order to be a superpower we need support aircraft, but how are we going to be a superpower with no combat aircraft? Then the support aircraft are useless.

Support aircraft are very important but fighters and bombers are even more important plus support aircraft don't wear out as fast.

The U.S. can afford more F-22s they just don't want to pay for it. Plus the more F-22s you buy then the lower the price will be.
Without these support assets your force is incapable of deploying its fighters and bombers and therefore will not be able to project force. Ask the guys on the ground what is more important another fighter more in the air or transports providing supplies. These assets are all equally important and despite the fact that numerous Eagles are unserviceable now, there are still a lot of fighters available.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Yes the the U.S. does need to replace its tanker and transport aircraft but they need to replace its fighters more than ever! I don't get how they think support aircraft is more important than combat aircraft. Now don't get me wrong but in order to be a superpower we need support aircraft, but how are we going to be a superpower with no combat aircraft? Then the support aircraft are useless.

Support aircraft are very important but fighters and bombers are even more important plus support aircraft don't wear out as fast.

The U.S. can afford more F-22s they just don't want to pay for it. Plus the more F-22s you buy then the lower the price will be.
Scorpion's right, support aircraft, morce multipliers and logistics are allways more inportant than a few more fighters, even F-22A's. Without tankers they will have no power projection capability at all beyond the USN. Therefore what point would haveing more F-22A's be if you couldnt deploy them? Boyond tankers the real power of the USAF lays in the variety of force multipliers they bring to a theater, not what fighters they bring. The capabilities of aircraft like E-3, JSATRS & Rivet Joint and the way they are intergrated into the wider system with spaced based ISR assets and other ground based C4ISR, means that if they were equiped with MiG 29's or F-4's they would still be the most powerfull airforce on the planet, by far. The platfrom is only a small part of the wider air combat system therefore its improtance is proportional to that. So yes a new KC is more important than more raptors, if I had to chose.
 
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