The FPDA has been around for a long time. Is it still as relevant to its member nations today as it was many many years ago? Is it weakening? Will it be better for a new pact to be created ? Perhaps, a binding one? Or with new countries? I would appreciate your astute views on this matter. Thank you.
Relevance of the Five Power Defence Arrangement
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
5PDA was renewed last year and it has also taken a new direction. ie It has already changed in its intent.
At the same time Aust and Indonesia have resigned and reinvigorated the Lombok Treaty.
The message in the fact that both are active should send a pretty clear message as to what Aust sees as the relevance and priorities.
At the same time Aust and Indonesia have resigned and reinvigorated the Lombok Treaty.
The message in the fact that both are active should send a pretty clear message as to what Aust sees as the relevance and priorities.
The FPDA was instrumental in providing a sense of security after Brits, and the NZ forces pulled out.
I still think it is a very essential and useful pact. It is very low maintenance - unlike NATO - and members probably get together to excercise just once a year.
This is especially important to the 2 original beneficiaries Singapore and Malaysia to continue to work with foreign militaries whom are more advanced and/or more experienced than we are.
However, does this benefit the other 3 parties the Brits, Oz and NZ? I would hazard a guess - yes. It gives Oz and NZ a presence in this region and to form important working relationships with SAF and MAF.
The SE Asia region is still unstable and if any trouble approaches Asutralia in future it may very likely come from this region. So it is important for Oz and NZ to be as deeply involved in the security of this region as possible.
Britain, OTOH, may have less reason to be still closely involved in this region, and may be stretching her resources a bit to sail half way round the world to come here. But I think everyones happy the old chaps still bother.
Another indirect benefit of this pact was that it led the way for Singapore to approach Oz and NZ for training facilities for our armour, arty and air force, what with Singapore being the size of a peanut and the Malaysians not wanting our aircrafts to buzz their airspace etc.
I still think it is a very essential and useful pact. It is very low maintenance - unlike NATO - and members probably get together to excercise just once a year.
This is especially important to the 2 original beneficiaries Singapore and Malaysia to continue to work with foreign militaries whom are more advanced and/or more experienced than we are.
However, does this benefit the other 3 parties the Brits, Oz and NZ? I would hazard a guess - yes. It gives Oz and NZ a presence in this region and to form important working relationships with SAF and MAF.
The SE Asia region is still unstable and if any trouble approaches Asutralia in future it may very likely come from this region. So it is important for Oz and NZ to be as deeply involved in the security of this region as possible.
Britain, OTOH, may have less reason to be still closely involved in this region, and may be stretching her resources a bit to sail half way round the world to come here. But I think everyones happy the old chaps still bother.
Another indirect benefit of this pact was that it led the way for Singapore to approach Oz and NZ for training facilities for our armour, arty and air force, what with Singapore being the size of a peanut and the Malaysians not wanting our aircrafts to buzz their airspace etc.
Last edited:
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
Deleted
Deleted
Last edited:
At last years meeting 5PDA was reviewed by all members. It has now taken on a different focus. The change in intel sharing, terrorism co-ord etc was presented to all member states as a "renewal" per se.
FPDA has its roots in the Confrontation, when Indonesia tried to disrupt the formation of Malaya Federation - West Malaysia, East Malaysia & Singapore.
This is the main reason why the FPDA does not involve Indonesia - which sits in between 4 of the FPDA countries.
And since Brunei also decided not to join Malaya, this also explains why Brunei is not a part of the FPDA but has a separate security arrangement with Britain.
This is the main reason why the FPDA does not involve Indonesia - which sits in between 4 of the FPDA countries.
And since Brunei also decided not to join Malaya, this also explains why Brunei is not a part of the FPDA but has a separate security arrangement with Britain.
In the light of the new security situation now vs 1960s, and mirroring TS original question of whether FPDA is still relevant...
Indonesia is now no longer a problem but part of the solution. The whole region is now under threat from Islamic fundamentalism from South Thailand to Philippines. Why is it still an "exclusive" club etc that does not include the other SE Asian nations?
I'm not so sure it could be interpreted as exclusive in the sense that it was an already pre-existing successful relationship, so the discussions last year were as to its continued relevance in light of the change in relationship with Indonesia.
in a sense, ASEAN is seen as the appropriate general vehicle of debate for regional concerns whereas 5PDA was born of a different requirement and has evolved.
In Aust and NZ's case, we have a number of security arrangements with quite a few of the regional players.
I would assume that if the issue was beyond the immediacy of the Straits and assoc environs that we would all refer to ASEAN for further debate.
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
Deleted
Deleted
Last edited:
As an internal state issue, Indonesia has already backdoored requests for soft black support. ie intel on some internal terrorism issues.
I agree that as far as a state generated internal military conflict, they would be reluctant for any overt external military assistance. It would be an external loss of face and internal loss of confidence issue.
They're more than happy with the current softly softly military approach
One step forward 2 steps back...
That's the dance we do with our neighbours all the time.
But underneath all that, SAF and TNI have a surprisingly close relationship. On top of training exchanges we have been selling lots of arms and ammo to them including 155mm howitzers. We've even given them some older ships decomm from our Navy.
With Indonesia Singapore decided that it was better to befriend TNI post-Suharto as the new governments are usually foolish, inept, lasts a short while or all of the above.
With Thais it was the same. We were close allies with their military for decades and even gave them a couple of our older F16s. But it backfired on us cos after their recent coup, the (then) new Thai military leader started making things very unpleasant for Singapore.
MAF, OTOH, buys not a single military item from us. And they once even delayed a LONG time before granting us permission to overfly their territory for a sea S&R mission.
That is why the FPDA is slightly ironical in that the enemy (Indon) has become the friend (to SG), whereas the ally (MY) has become rather cold.
Last edited:
For NZ, it is probably the most significant working multi-lateral military arrangement, now that ANZUS is "suspended". Certainly there has been comment from Australia that exercising with NZ separately from their US exercises has cost them money and resources. Okay, NZ is accepted into the agreement into restricting proliferation (cant remember the acronym) with the US and operates with them in Afghanistan, but the more exercises and opportunities our forces get the better. Our sealift vessel HMNZS Canterbury is currently working off the Great Barrier Reef with Australian and French units and one ANZAC is with her training up with Australian Navy. But the FPDA gives us a wider opportunity - even if our contribution, sans air combat forces and with only 2 frigates, is sadly lacking depth.
I would imagine our defence establishment finds it most useful.
I would imagine our defence establishment finds it most useful.
Small or otherwise, I think most in Singapore continue to be very pleased to still have the reassuring presence of the Kiwis.
And the NZDF actually benefits from our boys doing their artillery training down south.