WW2 Scenario Germany

grndpndr

New Member
I agree with 90%of what chrom has said except the point about steel and aluminum production. Nevertheles german weapon at times were unnecesasarily complex to the point of being ridiculous.For instance when 6 parts would suffice for an arty firing mech the germans would overengineeer to include 15.On the other hand they were brilliant engineers in other cases only perfection was acceptable forInstance, a subgun that may last 15mnutes onthe battlefield,the russians understood this . point I was making and will continue to make is no matter the miracles speer performed at least on paper the german nation was doomed the moment Hitler invaded Russia and i se no
other reason o for for arguing that basic point.

As an aside some of the german wepaons were brilliant the simplle panzefaust the MP44,the first true assault rifle that the aK was patterened after even though MR kalishnikov swears to this day the german design had NO Bearing in his brilliant design.Funny thogh that is the ONLY successful weapon he ever designed unlike the true genius of browning,(John).The high low pressure gun the principle of which operate the M203 40mm GL and automatic GL the MK 19 now called by a new name thus dating me.Swept wings ballistic missile etc etc.Had they (germans) a real clearing house for the ideas they may have become enough of a bloodletting for the allies that an acceptable treaty could have ben secured by the axis? Unles of course the manhattannperojevt had been cuntinued to fruition.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
eckherl, manfred & chrom...

Boys a different platform here or there, a different choice of poroduction facilities or a different tacticle decission would not have altered the outcome for the germans, it may well have altered the tactical situation some but i highly doubt anything of real strategic importance could have been achieved. A 4 engined bomber, a better choice of tank, a better rifle, whatever, none of them would have changed the outcome. Wars arnt won by platforms, they're won by organizations, nations and economies as a whole. Their folly was strategic rather than tactical or even economic. They fought the wrong people at the wrong time, i.e. the rest of the world at once. Strategically/Economically the combination of the UK, USA and what was left of the USSR was a combination that NAZI germany could never have matched, and the tactical advantage they held at the outset eroded as the war progresed, untill they were eventually outfought by all of the above.

@ merocaine....

An interesting point. However it was not only effective leadership that the red army lacked in 1941. Their real downfall was an atrocious operational doctorine in small to meduim sized unit terms. Their large scale doctorine wasnt too shabby, "deep battle" had all the hallmarks of blitzkrieg, and the battles of anhialtion waged in '44 were IMO more effective then the blitzkrieg battles waged in 41. Even if they had decent division/army/corps commanders they wouldnt have been able to maneuver them effectively because of the sh*tehouse quality of small unit commanders, NCO's, logistical train and operational doctorine. All of this was made painfully clear in Finland were the Soviets were constantly outfought on the company/battalion/brigade level by the finns, even when holding a massive numerical and in some cases logistical advantage. Ivan needed a year of hard schooling to allow military darwinism to take its cource. By 1944 they were better than the germans on the division/corps/army level, and their equal (for the most part) in small units. The Red Army evolved from the boots up, it changed from the awkward, cumbersome, inefficent, politically driven, outdated and incapable white elephant that evapotrated before the germans in 1941, to the devistating, precisie and extreemly capable instrement of warfare it was in 1944/45. Better commanders in 1941 would have changed little, the improvement needed to be organization wide before they could beat the germans.
Agreed 100%.
 

grndpndr

New Member
Agreed +100,But i do believe favorable terms MIGHT have been secured had germany posessed some of the weapoms mentioned in sufficient quantity in '43'
to give the allies a bloody nose.In the air western alliesB17/24 along with the p47 jug fughters vs Large%s of ME 262 w3x30mm cannons along with/air to air unguided rocket vs B24/17 formatuions generations ahead of any other aircraft arnmament piloted by still large #s of first rate pilots.sufficient panthers although as has been mentioned they were far more difficultv to produce AND maintain inthe field and without panther and other tank and tank destroyer design other than the stug 20 total war which hitler abhorred meaning involving women in war work would never have happened meaning the superior or equivalent #s of superior weapons when needed not after ALL hope was completely lost.Among Hitlers many faults were his
refusal to mobilize every resource of the nation ,ultimately fatal to
his NASDP and Reich.
 
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BRUTUS32

New Member
Let us talk about a scenario ..

Its 2. September 1939 , and 1 day before Germany started invading Poland , you are leader of Germany , and it is your decision to draw the war from this point on.
What will you do? How will you continue , what will you do different than Germany did , would you switch your economy to military economy already? What tehnology would you give priority to develop , and furthermore how would you lead the war from this point on so you don't make tactical mistakes as Germany did.
How would you act politicaly , economicaly and lead your army from that point?
A replay to this could go on for 50 pages so Ill try and post my ideas in somewhat bullet statements. The idea is how to conduct the war….

1939 - Go through with the Invasion of Poland the next day.

Fall 1939 - After the fall of Poland do not insist on the opening of the war in the west until the following summer. ( If you remember correctly Hitler ordered the invasion of France to begin a short time after the fall of Poland only to issue numerous delay orders, until the offensive was finally launched the following spring. ) Give my Field Commanders time to train and prepare for the offensive. Germans love to plan.

1940 - Launch invasion of Denmark and Norway to secure iron from Sweden as was done.
Summer 1940 - During the invasion of France do not halt the Panzers at Dunkirk. It might have cost significant damage to the Panzer forces used in destroying the pocket but strategically it would have been worth it.

1940 to 1941 - After the fall of France do not order priority productions changed from the Army to other branches. (Hitler order the propriety of productions changed from the Army to the Kriegsmarine, to the Air Force and then back to the Heer. Focus production on not diluting the armored division’s numbers as what was historically done. Pick one type of tank to focus on to make the supply situation more tenable. Create one organization to handle all military procurement no more of each service having its own economy.

During 1940 the German Army was still in its infancy in many ways in regards to new formations were being formed by taking Regiments out of existing divisions to make new ones. This was a standard practice but these new units still required extensive training and equipment. (Historically at this point the Germans began to remove different specialized units form the Division structure due to the diluting of the division structure. I would avoid this. Most divisions were severely under strength in NCO and officers at this point. I would open new officer and NCO school to train the required numbers needed. Start the mechanization of my supply system and try to create some motorized infantry divisions. Improve the infrastructure in Poland and build defenses there to prepare for any possible conflict with the Soviet Union.

Also during 1940 - Bring Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria into the Axis. With my economy still being geared towards the Army I would try to provide my new allies with equipment and more importantly extensive training in German tactics. Have large numbers of their officers and NCO come to Germany for joint training, move Divisions to these countries to assist in training. The better that my Allies are trained and equipped the better they would be. While I would be courting the above mentioned three I would also be courting Yugoslavia. I wouldn’t have the hind sight of there government being overthrown; when it was though I would launch an offensive and take the country just as it was historically done. Yugoslavia with its numerous partisans would be excellent training ground for my new Allies to work on joint operations and on perfecting their military art.

Fall of France 1940 - Meet with Franco and try to convince him to join my side. His requirements to Hitler were extensive and many historians believe that Hitler only made a faint attempt to gain Franco’s entry into the war. I would get Franco into the war or at the minimum get him to grant me access to cross his country and take Gibraltar.

1940 - As far as military operations go I would launch an air offensive in the English Channel and off of the coast of France on English shipping. I would not attempt an air offensive against England proper due to my lack of a strategic air arm and not having any adequate long range fighters. I do though have short range fighters and bombers that should be able to close the channel to English shipping. At the least it would keep the English focused on the defense of the British Isles I would hope. I would assist the Italian in taking Malta and assist them in the conquest of Egypt. Give the Italians training and strongly urge them to allow extensive officer exchanges with us and our new allies. And this would go for everyone. I estimate I would have to contribute 2 Panzer and two motorized divisions and Luftwaffe assets to assist them in taking Egypt and moving into Palestine. This offensive that I would assist in would take place in the spring of 41.

Late Spring Summer 41 - Assist the Iraqi Coup and use my Mechanized force in Palestine to assist them. At this point I would be sitting on the Persian boarder and on the Turkish boarder. I would launch diplomatic efforts to get Turkey to join my side. The Turks historically have no love for the Russians and I would play on this. If they did join immediately bring them into the training fold of my other Allies. At this point I would start to court Finland.

Late 40 and spring, summer 41 - Develop war plans for a possible invasion of Russia and defense plans. Conduct extensive studies of Soviet capabilities and tactics.

Well its time for bed and I want to think where I would go from here…… Ill finish the rest of my crazy idea tomorrow.
 

Chrom

New Member
There is however significant problem - starting from early 1940 USSR already changed to half-military economic. Many defence programs and reorganization plans which caused chaos in 1941 were due to complete in summer 1942 - and USSR army would be much, much stronger by then.

In short, should Germany start the war in 1942 - i would expect much higher Germany losses in initial phase and much higher USSR equipment quality in course of war.

On the Hitlers place i would concentrate on GB as much as i could - Germany could surery win against GB with only fraction of resources and losses suffered on the East Front during failed Blitzkrieg. The losses to achieve such win against GB could be horrible - but still hardly comparable with losses against USSR.

After GB fall, all EU would be under Axis control, and USA would have no foothold in EU and wouldnt be able to launch any meaningfull atack against land-based Germany.

Then, depending on situation, on Hitlers place i might attack USSR - but only if quick win is ensured. It might be too late for such attack - but in 1941 it was too early.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
There is however significant problem - starting from early 1940 USSR already changed to half-military economic. Many defence programs and reorganization plans which caused chaos in 1941 were due to complete in summer 1942 - and USSR army would be much, much stronger by then.

In short, should Germany start the war in 1942 - i would expect much higher Germany losses in initial phase and much higher USSR equipment quality in course of war.

On the Hitlers place i would concentrate on GB as much as i could - Germany could surery win against GB with only fraction of resources and losses suffered on the East Front during failed Blitzkrieg. The losses to achieve such win against GB could be horrible - but still hardly comparable with losses against USSR.

After GB fall, all EU would be under Axis control, and USA would have no foothold in EU and wouldnt be able to launch any meaningfull atack against land-based Germany.

Then, depending on situation, on Hitlers place i might attack USSR - but only if quick win is ensured. It might be too late for such attack - but in 1941 it was too early.

But in order to defeat great britain you have to achieve naval parity (at least) with the royal navy, which would have taken years and needed a large chunck of war production devoted to the task. While this proscess is takeing place the soviets could have attacked at any time, and there is no way hitler would have moved to large scale naval production with a 500lb bear at your back yard. Unless the soviet threat was dealt with britain could not be defeated.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
A replay to this could go on for 50 pages so Ill try and post my ideas in somewhat bullet statements. The idea is how to conduct the war….

1939 - Go through with the Invasion of Poland the next day.

Fall 1939 - After the fall of Poland do not insist on the opening of the war in the west until the following summer. ( If you remember correctly Hitler ordered the invasion of France to begin a short time after the fall of Poland only to issue numerous delay orders, until the offensive was finally launched the following spring. ) Give my Field Commanders time to train and prepare for the offensive. Germans love to plan.

1940 - Launch invasion of Denmark and Norway to secure iron from Sweden as was done.
Summer 1940 - During the invasion of France do not halt the Panzers at Dunkirk. It might have cost significant damage to the Panzer forces used in destroying the pocket but strategically it would have been worth it.

1940 to 1941 - After the fall of France do not order priority productions changed from the Army to other branches. (Hitler order the propriety of productions changed from the Army to the Kriegsmarine, to the Air Force and then back to the Heer. Focus production on not diluting the armored division’s numbers as what was historically done. Pick one type of tank to focus on to make the supply situation more tenable. Create one organization to handle all military procurement no more of each service having its own economy.

During 1940 the German Army was still in its infancy in many ways in regards to new formations were being formed by taking Regiments out of existing divisions to make new ones. This was a standard practice but these new units still required extensive training and equipment. (Historically at this point the Germans began to remove different specialized units form the Division structure due to the diluting of the division structure. I would avoid this. Most divisions were severely under strength in NCO and officers at this point. I would open new officer and NCO school to train the required numbers needed. Start the mechanization of my supply system and try to create some motorized infantry divisions. Improve the infrastructure in Poland and build defenses there to prepare for any possible conflict with the Soviet Union.

Also during 1940 - Bring Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria into the Axis. With my economy still being geared towards the Army I would try to provide my new allies with equipment and more importantly extensive training in German tactics. Have large numbers of their officers and NCO come to Germany for joint training, move Divisions to these countries to assist in training. The better that my Allies are trained and equipped the better they would be. While I would be courting the above mentioned three I would also be courting Yugoslavia. I wouldn’t have the hind sight of there government being overthrown; when it was though I would launch an offensive and take the country just as it was historically done. Yugoslavia with its numerous partisans would be excellent training ground for my new Allies to work on joint operations and on perfecting their military art.

Fall of France 1940 - Meet with Franco and try to convince him to join my side. His requirements to Hitler were extensive and many historians believe that Hitler only made a faint attempt to gain Franco’s entry into the war. I would get Franco into the war or at the minimum get him to grant me access to cross his country and take Gibraltar.

1940 - As far as military operations go I would launch an air offensive in the English Channel and off of the coast of France on English shipping. I would not attempt an air offensive against England proper due to my lack of a strategic air arm and not having any adequate long range fighters. I do though have short range fighters and bombers that should be able to close the channel to English shipping. At the least it would keep the English focused on the defense of the British Isles I would hope. I would assist the Italian in taking Malta and assist them in the conquest of Egypt. Give the Italians training and strongly urge them to allow extensive officer exchanges with us and our new allies. And this would go for everyone. I estimate I would have to contribute 2 Panzer and two motorized divisions and Luftwaffe assets to assist them in taking Egypt and moving into Palestine. This offensive that I would assist in would take place in the spring of 41.

Late Spring Summer 41 - Assist the Iraqi Coup and use my Mechanized force in Palestine to assist them. At this point I would be sitting on the Persian boarder and on the Turkish boarder. I would launch diplomatic efforts to get Turkey to join my side. The Turks historically have no love for the Russians and I would play on this. If they did join immediately bring them into the training fold of my other Allies. At this point I would start to court Finland.

Late 40 and spring, summer 41 - Develop war plans for a possible invasion of Russia and defense plans. Conduct extensive studies of Soviet capabilities and tactics.

Well its time for bed and I want to think where I would go from here…… Ill finish the rest of my crazy idea tomorrow.

This would improve the strategic situation somewhat but i doubt it would have achieved anything decisive. Britain would still have oil from the US and turkish forces would not have shifted the ballance on the eastern front dramatically. Germany is still faceing the commonwealth, the USA and the Soviet Union at once = game over.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Winning against GB was far from a certainty, for one Hitler needed to not only destroy the RAF but also the RN. Following the Norway campaign the German Navy had only 9 destroyers to Britians 30 covering the English Channel. Plus by the end of 41 Britian was out producing Germany in weapons and material.
 

Chrom

New Member
But in order to defeat great britain you have to achieve naval parity (at least) with the royal navy, which would have taken years and needed a large chunck of war production devoted to the task. While this proscess is takeing place the soviets could have attacked at any time, and there is no way hitler would have moved to large scale naval production with a 500lb bear at your back yard. Unless the soviet threat was dealt with britain could not be defeated.
No, full parity is not needed. Concentration of forces coupled with acceptable high losses during troop transporting would allow to make succesfull land assault. Luftwaffe would be almost certainly able to achieve air superiority over such close to its bases places.

As for USSR "could" attack.. there is very little chance. Stalin always feared what in case of such attack Hitler would NAP GB and USSR would be left alone against Germany, or even against Germany + GB + USA. Remember, USSR by the time was ALONE, even hostile to GB and USA to greater extent than to Germany, while Germany had accompanied allies (AXIS) with such strong allies as Japan, Italy, Finland and half dozen East European counties.

This is even not the question if Hitler shoud "deal" with USSR threat or not . He just was not able to do it - dealing with USSR while in war with GB means 2-fronts war with all disadvantages, including GB+USSR +USA alliance. While dealing with GB first would allow to concentrate on 1 enemy at time - with all associated advantages including much needed trade with USSR.

P.S. Also, think about one interesting thing: Hitler decided to attack USSR NOT becouse he feel threatened by USSR army. No. He attacked USSR EXACTLY becouse he thought USSR army was weak and no threat in hopes of quick and easy win!
 
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Cooch

Active Member
No, full parity is not needed. Concentration of forces coupled with acceptable high losses during troop transporting would allow to make succesfull land assault. Luftwaffe would be almost certainly able to achieve air superiority over such close to its bases places.
The problem with this scenario is that Germany would not only have to land troops on English soil, but it also had to supply them. Just as the Allies did in 1944, only the Germans had no "Pluto" to supply fuel, and almost no specialist landing craft for heavy supplies and equipment. Thus they would need to (a) capture ports (to avoid which limitation, the Allies invented "Mulberry") and (b) maintained a continued domination of the English channel. German fighters attempting to protect either shipping or troops on the ground would have faced the same problem that they experienced when required to escort Luftwaffe bombers - limited flexibility and limited loiter time. Far harder to provide 24hr cover than merely for the duration of one air raid at a time.

Chester Wilmot outlined the grand German strategy as follows.
Hitler wanted a German empire to directly compete with the British Empire and the Americans worldwide Therefore his strategy was (1) Poland and France. (2) Then Russia in order to secure his Eastern front so that he could then (3) afford to divert sufficient resources into naval production in order to achieve parity with the combined Royal Navy and USN.

Most of the "what if" scenarios under discussion require Hitler to step outside of his known, normal character. Some of the plans in this thread make some degree of sense, but Hitler was most unlikely to take them because the same character flaws which caused him to start WW2 also caused him to lose it. For example, it would have made a lot of sense to equip, train and respect his allies a lot more - but that would require him to abandon his theories of racial superiority and the manifest destiny of the Master Race.

Regards......... Peter
 

merocaine

New Member
Most of the "what if" scenarios under discussion require Hitler to step outside of his known, normal character. Some of the plans in this thread make some degree of sense, but Hitler was most unlikely to take them because the same character flaws which caused him to start WW2 also caused him to lose it. For example, it would have made a lot of sense to equip, train and respect his allies a lot more - but that would require him to abandon his theories of racial superiority and the manifest destiny of the Master Race.

Regards......... Peter
Very true and well put, the lack of any opposition with a credible power base meant that even in the event of Hitlers assassination power would have devolved to a senior Nazi.
Since most of them had a (much) shakier grasp of strategy, this would have hastened Nazi Germany's demise. The only hope was an army coup, but this was a non runner as there was no appitate among the Generals for this action (as long as the prospect of being made a field marshal existed).

All the same there existed some key points where Hitler could have made different decisions without breaking character.

He could have ordered the panzers to attack at all cost before Dunkirk to destroy the BFE.

He could have remained concentrated on the RAF rather than starting the blitz during the Battle of Britian.

He might have given Guderian his leave to push on in August 41, rather than
moping up the remains of Bundennys group.

He could have avoided the Stalingrad debacle, at the start of the campaign it was just a name on the map, not an objective in itself.

He never wanted to give battle at Kursk, that balls up came from the professional soldiers.

He could have avoided declaring war on the USA, and perhaps avoided there entry into the european war.

They might not have changed the outcome, but who knows.
 

Chrom

New Member
The problem with this scenario is that Germany would not only have to land troops on English soil, but it also had to supply them. Just as the Allies did in 1944, only the Germans had no "Pluto" to supply fuel, and almost no specialist landing craft for heavy supplies and equipment. Thus they would need to (a) capture ports (to avoid which limitation, the Allies invented "Mulberry") and (b) maintained a continued domination of the English channel. German fighters attempting to protect either shipping or troops on the ground would have faced the same problem that they experienced when required to escort Luftwaffe bombers - limited flexibility and limited loiter time. Far harder to provide 24hr cover than merely for the duration of one air raid at a time.

Chester Wilmot outlined the grand German strategy as follows.
Hitler wanted a German empire to directly compete with the British Empire and the Americans worldwide Therefore his strategy was (1) Poland and France. (2) Then Russia in order to secure his Eastern front so that he could then (3) afford to divert sufficient resources into naval production in order to achieve parity with the combined Royal Navy and USN.

Most of the "what if" scenarios under discussion require Hitler to step outside of his known, normal character. Some of the plans in this thread make some degree of sense, but Hitler was most unlikely to take them because the same character flaws which caused him to start WW2 also caused him to lose it. For example, it would have made a lot of sense to equip, train and respect his allies a lot more - but that would require him to abandon his theories of racial superiority and the manifest destiny of the Master Race.

Regards......... Peter
I agree what such move would be hard - just not impossible IF enouth resources spend. Including building more (already in production) fighters, more (already in production) frontline bombers, (easy to produce) landing vessels... This is far more realistically than building strategic bomber forces, strong naval forces or ME-262/Panther in 1941/42 as many suggested ;)

The main problem with war against USSR is what such war do not solve GB threat problem in any way - i.e. Germany would still need to capture GB even after succesfull Blitzkrieg. As i said, USSR posed no threat (USSR was even useful) for Germany back then - at least Hitler and Germany High Command were sure with that - so Germany could as well begin preparing GB assault right away.
 

Cooch

Active Member
I agree what such move would be hard - just not impossible IF enouth resources spend. Including building more (already in production) fighters, more (already in production) frontline bombers, (easy to produce) landing vessels... This is far more realistically than building strategic bomber forces, strong naval forces or ME-262/Panther in 1941/42 as many suggested ;)

The main problem with war against USSR is what such war do not solve GB threat problem in any way - i.e. Germany would still need to capture GB even after succesfull Blitzkrieg. As i said, USSR posed no threat (USSR was even useful) for Germany back then - at least Hitler and Germany High Command were sure with that - so Germany could as well begin preparing GB assault right away.
Chrom....

I disagree.

An early invasion of England would have been a high-risk enterprise that would probably have failed.
--> No established air superiority with even greater handicaps on the Luftwaffe fighter forces than posed by escorting bombers during the Blitz.
--> No established naval superiority.
--> No ability to degrade the English transport network - as the Allies did in Normandy in '44 - to prevent the English from concentrating forces in response.
--> Extremely limited ability to land armour, heavy equipment and materiel support. It has been postulated that in order to mount Operation Sea-Lion, Hitler would have had to virtually strip Germany of her internal water transport fleet, at huge cost to her industry.
If even Hitler - famous for his belief that "will" was more important than numbers, equipment or strategies - agreed that the preconditions for a successful invasion had not been met, then we should agree that it was highly unlikely.

Bear in mind that the original German master-strategy did not call for an invasion of Britain, and no preparation had been made for it. Planning assumed that by isolating England from the continent, she would be forced to sue for peace. It pays us to consider that had Germany prepared sufficiently to present a credible invasion threat, the political pressure within England may well have been such that the invasion would not have been needed.

The problem with any further invasion scenarios on '41 or '42 is that they become even less credible. England had time to rearm , achieve full air superiority over it's own land mass, and make preparations that outstripped the German ability to build up the required invasion infrastructure.

In short, the Germans lacked almost every advantage that the Allies had at D-Day - including any experience at conducting seabourne invasions - and yet we know how difficult the invasion of Normandy was.

Cheers.............. Peter
 

Cooch

Active Member
All the same there existed some key points where Hitler could have made different decisions without breaking character.

He could have ordered the panzers to attack at all cost before Dunkirk to destroy the BFE.
Possible, but if my understanding is correct, one of the reasons that this was not done, is that the terrain was not suitable for mobile armoured warfare. It pays also to recall that the nature of the battle would have changed from highly mobile warfare to direct assault upon concentrated British and French defenses as their position compressed. While I do not argue that Dunkirk could have been successfully defended as a continental beach-head, I suggest that attempting to capture the port with all British and French troops in situ would have been a very costly exercise for the Wermacht, and that it would not have happened so quickly as to prevent a significant number of Allied troops from being evacuated in any case.

He could have remained concentrated on the RAF rather than starting the blitz during the Battle of Britian.
Certainly possible, however the results of this are still open to debate. The belief that the RAF were within a fortnight of being forced to remove many of their squadrons from southern England was based on an overestimation of Luftwaffe strength and reserves.

He might have given Guderian his leave to push on in August 41, rather than
moping up the remains of Bundennys group.

He could have avoided the Stalingrad debacle, at the start of the campaign it was just a name on the map, not an objective in itself.

He never wanted to give battle at Kursk, that balls up came from the professional soldiers.
No Comment

He could have avoided declaring war on the USA, and perhaps avoided there entry into the European war.
Hitler's grand plan always envisaged conflict with the US, or at least, competition backed by sufficient military muscle to prevent the Americans from interfering as the Germans took over large parts of the English and former French possessions. Hitler even had plans for us here in Australia.
Therefore his question was not so much "if" as "when". When Hitler failed to force Britain to sue for peace, conflict with America in the shorter time frame became almost inevitable. He had to attempt to stop Britain from being resupplied from America, and his only means of doing so involved attacks on American shipping and personnel. The German involvement in the Tripartite Pact with Japan effectively meant that as soon as the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour, any other result than open warfare between Germany and the US was highly unlikely.

They might not have changed the outcome, but who knows.
Yes, that's the first principle of speculative history. Nothing happens in absolute isolation, and any single act of Hitlers would have changed the reaction of other parties.
It's still fun to play "what if" games, tho......

Peter
 

Chrom

New Member
Chrom....

I disagree.

An early invasion of England would have been a high-risk enterprise that would probably have failed.
--> No established air superiority with even greater handicaps on the Luftwaffe fighter forces than posed by escorting bombers during the Blitz.
Contrary, close air bases in France would allow much, much easer cover by short-ranged german fighters. In BoB one of the main problem for german fighters was they insuffecient range - is not a problem here.

--> No established naval superiority.
Could be compensated by air superiority and bomber attacks. I very, very much doubt GB would risk its fleet bringing in direct reach of german frontline bombers, subs and mines.

--> No ability to degrade the English transport network - as the Allies did in Normandy in '44 - to prevent the English from concentrating forces in response.
An problem ofc, but do not everestimate it. GB had quite limited land army anyway.
--> Extremely limited ability to land armour, heavy equipment and materiel support. It has been postulated that in order to mount Operation Sea-Lion, Hitler would have had to virtually strip Germany of her internal water transport fleet, at huge cost to her industry.
Yes, huge cost to industry. But this huge cost - is NOTHING compared to cost of war against USSR.
If even Hitler - famous for his belief that "will" was more important than numbers, equipment or strategies - agreed that the preconditions for a successful invasion had not been met, then we should agree that it was highly unlikely.
Well, Hitler is hardly a benchmark ;) Besides, german high command judged about numbers, equipment or strategies - not Hitler. There were planes to assault GB in development, and in retrospect they look far more doable than planes to Blitzkrieg USSR - even by all the big luck Germany experienced in initial attack.

Bear in mind that the original German master-strategy did not call for an invasion of Britain, and no preparation had been made for it. Planning assumed that by isolating England from the continent, she would be forced to sue for peace. It pays us to consider that had Germany prepared sufficiently to present a credible invasion threat, the political pressure within England may well have been such that the invasion would not have been needed.
Very wise strategy. I kinda very much agree what isolating GB would be the best bet. But attacking USSR WITHOUT peace with GB - was very, very stupid. This is my point - if Germany have war with GB - deal with GB first. At all costs.

The problem with any further invasion scenarios on '41 or '42 is that they become even less credible. England had time to rearm , achieve full air superiority over it's own land mass, and make preparations that outstripped the German ability to build up the required invasion infrastructure.
No, in 1942 it wasnt too later by any way. Germany would still have much higher (and better) fighters numbers, and very adequate bombers numbers. The land forces were not even comparable - german ones were order of magnitude more powerfull. Of course, actually land & supply them would be problem - but solvable one with some planning and efforts.
In short, the Germans lacked almost every advantage that the Allies had at D-Day - including any experience at conducting seabourne invasions - and yet we know how difficult the invasion of Normandy was.
Germany, contrary to allies, had overhelming land army superiority. Only problem would be to transport this army over 40km wide water - hard, but not impossible.

As i said, on Hitlers place i would not attack USSR or GB at all. I would concolidate all occupied EU first. But if i had only choice about who to attack - GB or USSR (with GB still in war) - i would choose GB. At least, i dont risk anything important here. If i loose - i just loose part of army. Not the whole 3rd Reich as in case of war vs USSR.
 

Cooch

Active Member
Contrary, close air bases in France would allow much, much easer cover by short-ranged german fighters. In BoB one of the main problem for german fighters was they insuffecient range - is not a problem here.
One of the major tactical advantages possessed by Fighter command was radar, and - as you no doubt know - they used it to anticipate Luftwaffe movements and where possible, attack with superior numbers and with the sun behind them. With an invasion fleet on the water and troops on English soil, the Luftwaffe is forced to maintain fighter cover over those assets 24 hrs per day, as well as providing extra fighter escorts for any bombing raids - whether tactical or strategic. I doubt that you have considered how much that thins out the available aircraft and pilots, reducing their ability to concentrate numbers, and making their presence and location highly predictable. Pilots need to sleep and aircraft need to refuelled and maintained. This is far more easily done when you are running one or two bombing raids per night, but not so easily done when providing air-cover 24/7. This is the problem faced by the Luftwaffe, while the RAF has the liberty to concentrate numbers and attack when and where it suits them.

Could be compensated by air superiority and bomber attacks. I very, very much doubt GB would risk its fleet bringing in direct reach of german frontline bombers, subs and mines.
Not only was air superiority never achieved, but risking the whole fleet was never required. The Channel is small-ship territory - far too shallow for good sub operation - and the RN had a large advantage in numbers of Destroyers, Corvettes. Mines cut both ways. The British also had minefields to protect their vulnerable ports. Reread my point about requiring the Luftwaffe to cover extensive assets with limited resources.

An problem ofc, but do not everestimate it. GB had quite limited land army anyway.
The ability of the Germans to land troops on English soil was also severely limited. Once the Germans had committed their invasion fleet, the English did not have to plan to defend the whole of their coastline, but could concentrate sufficient troops to equal or exceed the numbers that the Wermacht could land and suport with available resources. It didn't matter how many divisions Hitler had in France. What mattered was how many he could get to England, and how much equipment he could send with them. It is highly unlikely that the Germans could have achieved the superiority in numbers or equipment that is usually required to mount a succesful attack.



Well, Hitler is hardly a benchmark ;) Besides, german high command judged about numbers, equipment or strategies - not Hitler. There were planes to assault GB in development, and in retrospect they look far more doable than planes to Blitzkrieg USSR - even by all the big luck Germany experienced in initial attack.
Actually, No.
German High Command also considered an assault on England with then-available resouces to be unlikely to succeed. However the planning has to be done in order to demonstrate this, and the sigh of relief when Hitler said "Not this time" was pretty heartfelt.

Very wise strategy. I kinda very much agree what isolating GB would be the best bet. But attacking USSR WITHOUT peace with GB - was very, very stupid. This is my point - if Germany have war with GB - deal with GB first. At all costs.
The problem was that , having started the war, Hitler was not at liberty to stop it on his own terms. It is debatable whether his timing was off, but he considered the USSR to be highly untrustworthy and a natural enemy which would have to be dealt with at some stage in order to secure his eastern frontier.
Having concluded that an invasion of England was currently impossible, his options are pretty much as follows.
~ Peace with England would have required abandoning his conquered territory in Western Europe and possibly, Poland (remember why England declared war in the first place). Without an invasion threat, England (particularly under Churchill) was unlikely to accept peace under Hitler's terms.
~ Conquering England required diverting his armaments industry to the building of a Navy that would be at least comparable to the RN, and that requires playing catch-up, beacuse the English were not exactly letting their shipyards lie idle, either. This diversion of men and resources can only come at the expense of other war supplies - tanks, guns, planes - which degraded Germany's ability to deal with the perceived Russian threat. .
~ In theory, a successful blockade might have starved England to the bargaining table, but this was never achieved. Even at its height, the U-Boat campaign was not sinking shipping tonnage as fast as the Americans were building it.

No, in 1942 it wasnt too later by any way. Germany would still have much higher (and better) fighters numbers, and very adequate bombers numbers. The land forces were not even comparable - german ones were order of magnitude more powerfull. Of course, actually land & supply them would be problem - but solvable one with some planning and efforts.
Transporting those assets across the channel was THE problem.
No air superiority.
No naval superiority.
By the summer of 1942 (any invasion required reasonable weather) The English had had two additional years in which to prepare a defence in depth and conscript and train more personnel. The American Air Corp was in England and conducting raids into Europe. US Army troops were in place in England (tho not to levels of the subsequent build-up) and the English had sufficient air-power to conduct 1000 bomber raids on cities in Germany's industrial heartland. If the Luftwaffe could not prevent this, how do we imagine that they couild prevent raids on a similar level on any German beach-head on the English coast? Normandy 1944 showed how devastating tactical bombing by Bomber Command could be against German defences. This hypothetical has them bombing German troops in the open or in the most hastily prepared shelters.

As i said, on Hitlers place i would not attack USSR or GB at all. I would concolidate all occupied EU first. But if i had only choice about who to attack - GB or USSR (with GB still in war) - i would choose GB. At least, i dont risk anything important here. If i loose - i just loose part of army. Not the whole 3rd Reich as in case of war vs USSR.
The problem is still larger than you think. When - not if - you fail...
~ You lose the moral or propaganda value of never having lost a major campaign. You still have to deal with Russia while having an encouraged and belligerent England on your back doorstep. (and in Africa)
~ In preparation, you have diverted much more than just the infantry and armour divisions which you tried to send across the channel. You've had to divert resources into areas which give you little or no benefit when dealing with the Russians.

Step back for a moment and consider how difficult the invasion of Normandy was for the Allies. It required an immense buildup of men and materials. It required months of preparatory bombing and sobotage. It required an intensive diversion campaign to convince the Wermacht that the landings would occur elsewhere. It required large quantities of new technology. It needed absolute air and naval superiority. The Allies had everything going for them and still it was hard.
How are we supposed to think that the Wermacht conduct a succesful operation without these advantages and without the prior experience of making other contested landings?

Please consider,,,,,,,,, Peter
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Cooch, very well put my frind. You adressed all of the major strategic problems faced by the germans and hit the nail right on the head.

Contrary, close air bases in France would allow much, much easer cover by short-ranged german fighters. In BoB one of the main problem for german fighters was they insuffecient range - is not a problem here.
But achieveing air superiority over the channel would have not been anywere near enough to secure your lines of communication across the channel. To do so you need air superiority and naval parity at least. You dont just have to get the initial waves ashore, you have to keep the lines of supply protected. The royal navey had something an 8 to 1 superiority in the invasion area, there is no way the luftwaffe could have provided the security needed. At dunkirk the RN only lost 6 destroers that were sitting still, and they enjoued air superiority then. The fact is that german air power had shown clearly its inability to have a serious impact on RN units. Air superiority would not have stoped the 3 RN battleships, which were less than 12 hours sail away from the invasion area, from breaking into the sea lanes. The Germans could have done nothing to stop them because they did not have armour pirceing bombs, becasue they were never intending to deal with large naval units. Frankly the invasion was impossible in 1940, 41 or 42 for that matter because there was no way that the germans could secure the channel for the whole time of the campaign. Air power was superflous to the desisive element in the campaign, naval superiority.


Have a read of this, theres a few articles like this but this is the only one i could find. Remember this is buy the people who love the battle of Britain:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/24/nbattle24.xml


Could be compensated by air superiority and bomber attacks. I very, very much doubt GB would risk its fleet bringing in direct reach of german frontline bombers, subs and mines.
What are you smokeing??? You think the RN would shy away from battle becasue of bombers which wenet configured for naval warfare, subs when they had a 6 to 1 (i think) superiority in ASW assets, and mines when their home was being invaded and they could interviene so easilly???? Are you crazy??? Truth be told the germans could have done virtually nothing to stop the RN from decimateing the invasion force at any time during the war.


An problem ofc, but do not everestimate it. GB had quite limited land army anyway.
Dont underestimate it either. By the time of the battle of britain there were 9 fully equiped divisions in the invasion area, after annother month there were 11. Without degradeing the transport network the british could easilly concentrate on the beachead. Even though the british army was smallish in size in agregate terms, this is less relevent because the germans ability to project forces across the channel (assuming for a second that was possible in the timeframe mentioned or at all) was severely restricted by their logistical capability. Therefore the british would have had the advantage in the "battle of the buildup", the phase that Monty thought the most important in the Normandy campaign.

Yes, huge cost to industry. But this huge cost - is NOTHING compared to cost of war against USSR.
Well, Hitler is hardly a benchmark ;) Besides, german high command judged about numbers, equipment or strategies - not Hitler. There were planes to assault GB in development, and in retrospect they look far more doable than planes to Blitzkrieg USSR - even by all the big luck Germany experienced in initial attack.
War with the USSR was inevitable, Hitler knew it and Stalin knew it. Therefore Hitlers real threat lay in the east.

Very wise strategy. I kinda very much agree what isolating GB would be the best bet. But attacking USSR WITHOUT peace with GB - was very, very stupid. This is my point - if Germany have war with GB - deal with GB first. At all costs.
But thats the whole point. In order to defeat britain either by direct invasion or commerce warfare, a large portion of germanies war production would have to be shifted from aircraft and land units to naval units. It COULD NOT do this while it had the largest army in the world on its border. Thats why hitler turned east after the failure of the BoB to bring the pommies to the table, he had no real choice.

No, in 1942 it wasnt too later by any way. Germany would still have much higher (and better) fighters numbers, and very adequate bombers numbers. The land forces were not even comparable - german ones were order of magnitude more powerfull. Of course, actually land & supply them would be problem - but solvable one with some planning and efforts.
Bombers and fighters mean little compared to naval units when condicting amphibious operations (by the way in 42 the british ahd the better fighters, FW 190's were inferior to up engined/ up gunned spitfire Mk 8's). Agregate land forces are irrelevent of you cant put them in theater, which is the whole point. Without adequeate naval and logistical assets agregate land superiority is irrelevent.

Germany, contrary to allies, had overhelming land army superiority. Only problem would be to transport this army over 40km wide water - hard, but not impossible.
We are not talking about the Grande Armee in 1805, the germans can not live off the land. The above statement indicates that you do not comprehend the logistical complexity of amphibious warfare. Moveing the troops was buy far the easiest part. Once they were in theater they had to be supplied through high intncity, modern, mechanised warfare, which means thousands of tonnes of materiel a day moved across naval lines of communication when the enemy has naval superiority. Its a suiside mission, and the german planners knew it thats why they never tried it.


As i said, on Hitlers place i would not attack USSR or GB at all. I would concolidate all occupied EU first. But if i had only choice about who to attack - GB or USSR (with GB still in war) - i would choose GB. At least, i dont risk anything important here. If i loose - i just loose part of army. Not the whole 3rd Reich as in case of war vs USSR.
Your missing the point, if you had have tried it you would have failed, and brought the US into the war earlier. You still would have had to face the USSR, exept after you had wasted valuable time and resouces on an unwinable campaign. The campaign was unwinnable becasue the pre-requisits were not in place and could not have been unless the soviet threat was illiminated. That is the realistic strategic situation in 40-42.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Ozzy Blizzard:

agreed, the Luftwaffe was not well equipped for anti-shipping operations, though it was better than you seem to think. Stukas could bomb accurately enough to sink moving ships, had proved it (they sank a lot of moving ships later, in the Med), & had 500Kg SAP bombs, but they could only operate effectively where the air threat was low. The Luftwaffe had neglected air-dropping of torpedoes, & had none in 1940, & even if they'd hastily lashed 'em up, the crews would have been insufficiently trained.

There were worse problems - since Germany lacked shipping for an amphibious assault, Sealion was supposed to use river barges, modified with bow ramps. They were slow, unseaworthy (flat-bottomed with high length to beam ratio & not enough freeboard), & a single destroyer getting in among them could have wiped out a Wehrmacht division with its wash. Even without launching an invasion, diverting barges for the preparation cost the German economy a vast amount, due to the disruption of transport, & the damage carried on into 1941, because of the barges lost to RAF bombing in the Channel ports. The British economy grew almost 10% in 1940, as war production ramped up. The German economy was flat. That economic damage reduced weapons production. Now imagine an invasion . . .

While the Luftwaffe could probably have achieved air superiority over SE England if it had concentrated solely on that aim, I don't see it being able to keep an invasion fleet safe. British pilot training & aircraft production were both running well ahead of the Germans in mid-1940, & a victory would have depleted the Luftwaffe alarmingly, & quite possibly left it incapable of suppressing an RAF recovery, let alone keeping the RN away from an invasion fleet. Then there is the weather: when is this victory expected by? Too late, & the chances of getting those barges across without foundering becomes pretty small even without British interference.

If Germany diverted resources into aircraft production, pilot training, anti-shipping weapons & shipbuilding, including better troop transports than Rhine barges, while systematically attacking British air defences from the air, it might have been able to eventually overcome the UK. But as has been said, that would have meant diverting resources away from the Heer - with the largest & most heavily-equipped army in the world just across the border.
 

merocaine

New Member
Does anyone know at what point Hitler decided that an invasion of Britain was'ent on?

Was it something that was seriously thought through? Swerve mentioned the economic damage the barge building programme caused, is the abortive Sealion operation yet another sign of the confusion in German strategic policy at this stage of the War?
Hitler showed an excellent grasp of strategic realties for most of the war, from what you guys outlined above it seems nonsensical that Hitler was ever really serious about Sealion, bearing in mind the difficulties of controlling the channel.
By all accounts he had a very low opinion of the surface fleet, so was his judgment solely influenced by the performance of the Luftwaffe in the B.O.B.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Does anyone know at what point Hitler decided that an invasion of Britain was'ent on?

Was it something that was seriously thought through? Swerve mentioned the economic damage the barge building programme caused, is the abortive Sealion operation yet another sign of the confusion in German strategic policy at this stage of the War?
Hitler showed an excellent grasp of strategic realties for most of the war, from what you guys outlined above it seems nonsensical that Hitler was ever really serious about Sealion, bearing in mind the difficulties of controlling the channel.
By all accounts he had a very low opinion of the surface fleet, so was his judgment solely influenced by the performance of the Luftwaffe in the B.O.B.
I dont think they ever intended to invade, because they knew it was not a viable option, the germans werent stupid after all. Strategically the whole aim in the west was to defeat France and isolate the UK. Once that was achieved if the UK did not sue for peace imediatly they would apply pressure untill the pommies :)D ) came to the table. In order to apply said pressure a "viable" invasion threat had to be maintained and the river barges were the only possible amphibious vessels. The BOB it seems was intended to achieve the same goal, once the RAF had been defeated and retreated north of the temms, southern england could be bombed, in daylight, at will. This increased the "viability" of the invasion threat and the effect of unfettered daylight bombing of southern england, it was hoped, would achive the original goal, pushing the United kingdom out of the war. Thats what the BOB and Sealion were all about IMHO, they were not meant to achieve any decisve military sucsess but force the UK out of the war through internal political pressure. Then the germans would be free to deal with the Russians. If it had have worked the economic damage suffered would have been worth the result.

So IMHO, strategically Hitler was on the mark with Sealion and the BOB, he just underestimated the British peolples fortitude generally, and Churchills specifically.
 
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