Leopard 2A4 with L55?

[eckherl]

Why are they using M48 stocks?
Shouldn't newer 105mm be available from old M60s and M1IPs?

I strongly advocate that German is becoming the standard language in which tank..sorry...Panzer operations and technics are discussed.

Would be so much easier for me!

Double post accidentally added

 

[eckherl]

Why are they using M48 stocks?
Shouldn't newer 105mm be available from old M60s and M1IPs?

I strongly advocate that German is becoming the standard language in which tank..sorry...Panzer operations and technics are discussed.

Would be so much easier for me!

M68A1 105mm guns were used on M48A5s all the way up to M1IPs. And for the rest of that post Waylander - Ha Ha Ha.

 

[Waylander]

Aaah, defenitely not my times.
I would swear that I read M48 and not M68...

 

[kato]

Let's just call it a "L7" ,)

 

[eckherl]

Let's just call it a "L7" ,)

Yep - just like we should the M256 a L44.

 

[eckherl]

Aaah, defenitely not my times.
I would swear that I read M48 and not M68...

Guns on the M48A5s that I served on in ROK had M68A1s stuffed in the snout, yes we had M48A5s in ROK in the mid eighties, no wise cracks Waylander on my age, I can still don a CVC helmet and go out and shoot a table 8 with a distinguished score, then turn around and shoot a table 12 with a bunch of fire breathers.

 

[Rythm]

No worries mate. Us germans also had M48s in the 80s still. Altough i was lucky and got my first training on the Leo1

 

[kato]

No worries mate. Us germans also had M48s in the 80s still. Altough i was lucky and got my first training on the Leo1

Until 1993 even, although since about 1985 only in the Territorial Army (which had two Leo 1 btls and about ten M48 btls in 1989) and the inactive reserve units of the main army. All sold to Turkey then as part of the CFE cascade.

And of course the German M48s only got 105mm guns in 1978-1980 (the same L7 as in Leo 1), along with other Leo 1 parts. 650 upgraded, those served till '93.

 

[eckherl]

No worries mate. Us germans also had M48s in the 80s still. Altough i was lucky and got my first training on the Leo1

I was actually stunned when I arrived in the ROK and wandered down to the motor pool after going to my unit, I remember asking my platoon sargeant if we shared our motor pool with a ROK outfit when I laid my eyes on them, he stated no and showed me which one I would be crewing. talk about a throw back in time. We only had them for about six months then we switched them out to M60A3s and turned them over to the ROK.

 

[eckherl]

Until 1993 even, although since about 1985 only in the Territorial Army (which had two Leo 1 btls and about ten M48 btls in 1989) and the inactive reserve units of the main army. All sold to Turkey then as part of the CFE cascade.

And of course the German M48s only got 105mm guns in 1978-1980 (the same L7 as in Leo 1), along with other Leo 1 parts. 650 upgraded, those served till '93.

Do you know how long that you guys actually kept the M47 in service.

 

[kato]

M47 was replaced with Leo 1 between 1965 and 1967 (or with KanonenJagdPanzer in tank destroyer role), and was always only an interim solution.
Phasing out was relatively quick, and the tanks were pretty much all used as targets, barracks gatekeepers, or sold to a scrapper. By some rumours (on another forum), there were still a handful M47 in German reserve depots in 2003, though about everyone has their doubts about that.

 

[eckherl]

M47 was replaced with Leo 1 between 1965 and 1967 (or with KanonenJagdPanzer in tank destroyer role), and was always only an interim solution.
Phasing out was relatively quick, and the tanks were pretty much all used as targets, barracks gatekeepers, or sold to a scrapper. By some rumours (on another forum), there were still a handful M47 in German reserve depots in 2003, though about everyone has their doubts about that.

Thanks for the information.

 

[tankhunter123]

Thanks for the information.

what 1/72 kit are you talking about?

 

[Lucasnz]

what 1/72 kit are you talking about?

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[kato]

Until 1993 even, although since about 1985 only in the Territorial Army (which had two Leo 1 btls and about ten M48 btls in 1989) and the inactive reserve units of the main army.

Very late correction, there were as of 1989:

• 492 M48A2GA2 in 12 tank battalions (of 41 each); 216 active, 276 reserve
• 112 M48A2GA2 in 16 anti-tank platoons (of 7 each) with Territorial Army motorized infantry battalions; 42 active, 70 reserve
• 32 M48A2GA2 with Heavy Training Centers (SAusbZ) 52/4 and 55/4 (16 each)
• 14 M48A2GA2 unaccounted for, probably rotating maintenance reserve
• 235 M48A2CG (some sources: 295) in reserve depots located in Belgium, not assigned to units - these were kept mostly for possible chassis reuse for engineer vehicles etc.
• an unknown number of M48A2DB/M48A2CR engineer tanks in reserve - A2DB were standard A2C with mounted M8A1 dozer blade, gun removed while in reserve in late 80s iirc (possibly during/after 1990 though), then switched to A2CR designation.
• 52 M48A2GA1 engineer tanks (gun removed) (rebuilt from regular tanks)

Some (possibly 150+?) M48 were rebuilt to engineer tanks in the 1970s, others were scrapped. Some of these were also used till the 90s, or kept in reserve until the late 90s. 24 M48 were rebuilt to Keiler demining tanks between 1996 and 1998, and are still in service as the last vehicle of the line.

Around 1990 the official spare parts supply for the M48, especially the original engine, supposedly ran out. It was therefore quite logical to use them in giveaways to NATO partners to lower German MBT numbers below CFE requirements. Most remaining M48 models in use worldwide nowadays use different engines (e.g. MTU engines in M48A5T1 and Keiler or the diesel engines in M48A5K).

 

[Rythm]

Indeed quite late, but interesting numbers. You wouldnt by any chance know the amount of MT-LB and BMP-1/2 that were transfered to sweden post-reunification, would you Kato?

 

[kato]

1133 BMP-1 were taken over from the NVA. 764 of these were planned for conversion for the Bundeswehr, 19 were sold to the USA, 350 were sold to Sweden (this is also the number Jane's lists).
Bundeswehr conversion stopped at 586 units though, and the leftover units were sold again. 140 of these units went to Finland and up to 28 went to Sweden, for a total of about ~375 - the number you usually see on the Internet.

SIPRI lists 366 BMP-1 plus 66 spares (which might have come from Poland though) delivered. There were spare parts in NVA depots, and while these might have made up 66 BMP-1 altogether, i doubt these were delivered assembled.

Of the 24 BMP-2 taken over from the NVA two were sold to France and 15 to the USA. No idea where the remaining 7 went to.

With MT-LB it's far more complex, as the Bundeswehr didn't consider these combat vehicles and therefore didn't publish the numbers taken over. One combination i've seen lists 766 MT-LB of all types used by the NVA, which probably comes closest to the number 800 you generally read on the Internet.

SIPRI lists 622 MT-LB(u) plus 215 spares plus 228 2S1 chassis delivered. There are other sources claiming e.g. either 550 or 700 delivered, so there's a lot of ambiguity.