Russia Tests New Wonder Weapon

nevidimka

New Member
It seems to me, that US justifying has to stop. Its becoming rediculous.
Everything they do seems to be justifiable, even when the go back on thier words.
Who is to say then, that 10 misiles today will not become 100 in the future?

Currently the only countries that would pose a threat on a large scale to US is Russia n China, and US seems to be on a path to negate that, by using Korea in the east n Iran on the west as reasons to stage thier ABM's. They are probably taking this opportunity when Russia is weak to build up their capability in ABM and staging locations before Russia could attempt to catch up.

Considering that US promises this ABM's is targeted against Iran n not Russia, if Russia decides to launch missiles against Europe then what? these missiles will be sitting there in their silo's doing nothing? I doubt so. I know 10 missiles cant do much, but like i said it can grow fast easily, just like US previous unkept promises.
 

shimmy

New Member
Truth is Hard to Find

I am sorry but I have a lot of trouble believing Russian claims especially since Putin came to power. Of course , it is better to be fooled into believing they have these great weapons that to mistakingly assume they do not have them.
 

Incognito129

Banned Member
Putin has nothing to do with this. If he was the one making em maybe. The russians have always been the best in aerospace engineering.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
It seems to me, that US justifying has to stop. Its becoming rediculous.
Everything they do seems to be justifiable, even when the go back on thier words.
Who is to say then, that 10 misiles today will not become 100 in the future?
Currently the only countries that would pose a threat on a large scale to US is Russia n China, and US seems to be on a path to negate that, by using Korea in the east n Iran on the west as reasons to stage thier ABM's. They are probably taking this opportunity when Russia is weak to build up their capability in ABM and staging locations before Russia could attempt to catch up.
Considering that US promises this ABM's is targeted against Iran n not Russia, if Russia decides to launch missiles against Europe then what? these missiles will be sitting there in their silo's doing nothing? I doubt so. I know 10 missiles cant do much, but like i said it can grow fast easily, just like US previous unkept promises.
Yes, and if they really were to prevent Iran from getting nukes, as was stated on many occasions, those interceptors wouldn't be needed at all- the N Koreans are even less likely to threaten the EU/NATO.
“There appears to be no credible technical reason that the stated U.S. objective to defend against … Iranian ICBMs could not be fulfilled by other types of deployment configurations,” said Postol, according to the AAAS press release. “It is therefore understandable that Russian military analysts might suspect that U.S. motivations are different from those that have been stated,” said Postol. ..the planned Polish-based interceptors and a radar system in the Czech Republic could target and catch Russian missiles, thus threatening Russia's nuclear deterrent. ..the interceptors could catch Russian ICBMs; the interceptors and the radar would be better positioned closer to Iran to counter a threat from its missiles.
Postol concluded that the MDA significantly understated the speed that their interceptors can reach when their boosters burn out and overstated how long they would need to track a missile by launching the interceptors.
While all six scientists are skeptical that the U.S. missile defense system can work, they believe that in terms of raw speed, U.S. interceptors in Poland could catch a Russian ICBM launched from western Russia at any part of the continental United States. In Postol's model, the intercept would occur at a point over the North Pole. ..Russia has expressed worries that once the bases are established, they could be expanded with more interceptors and improved capabilities.
http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/bmd/postol_on_euro_md.htm
BTW, many nations, besides Iran, located in the ME/W Asia already have IRBMs- Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, India, and until recently Iraq.

Russian president Vladimir Putin has made his campaign against the deployment of US interceptor missiles in EastEast EuropeEurope the main theme of his foreign policy and confronted Washington with an ultimatum: if the US goes through with the deployment of missiles in Poland and radar stations in the Czech Republic, Moscow will develop missiles capable of busting them.
In a fresh arms race between America and Russia focusing on anti-missile interceptors, Israel as an integral component of the US system could find itself threatened by Moscow’s sales to Iran and Syria of hardware designed to knock out its own anti-missile defenses.
What Israel’s military planners fear most is the Russian Iskander E, which has a range of 200 km, pinpoint precision, and the ability to evade trackers. Its acquisition enables Syria to launch surprise attacks on Israel’s anti-missile positions and airforce bases. ..The US-Israeli missile defense network is designed not only to intercept Iranian ballistic missiles of 1,300-1,500 km range fired at Europe, but also the short-range Iskander-E short-range ballistic missiles.
This decision was taken after it was discovered that the Iskander-E is designed to outfight key Western ballistic missile defenses, particularly the Patriot Advanced Capability PAC-2/3 low-to-high altitude air-defense system.
The Iskander-E is the export version of the Kolomna-designed 9M72 short-range ballistic missile in current service with the Russian army. Its range is shorter – 280 km compared with the 9M72’s 400 km.
The weapon is essentially an improved version of the old Soviet Scud plus the latest advances in propulsion, guidance and computerized systems.
The Iskander-E’’s pinpoint accuracy and short preparation time are seen by the US and Israel as posing a greater threat than its range or payload. For the first time, Syria has a missile with a solid propellant capable of mounting an effective surprise attack on the AirAir ForceForce bases and military command centers of northern and central Israel, though not the south – a far cry from the Scud with its liquid propellant and lengthy and clumsy launch preparations.
With a CEP (Circular Error Probable: a measure of missile accuracy) of a few meters, individual aircraft shelters and high value military installations could be effectively targeted.
The Iskander might well encourage Damascus to believe that a surprise attack against US bases in Iraq, Israel and Turkey could be successful.
3. The United States and Israel therefore have more in mind than a defense system against an Iranian ballistic threat to Europe. They do not rule out Moscow’s potential for one day creating the same kind of integrated missile and missile defense system with Iran and or Syria, as the one the US has formed with Israel.
..The Juniper Cobra exercise of March 2007, the fourth of the two-yearly series, was meant as a discreet signal to Moscow, as well as to its past and future customers - especially Syria - that even before their deployment, the Russian-made missiles on sale have already been outmaneuvered by the US defense systems in position to shoot them down.
DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s Moscow sources report that the Kremlin and top Russian brass greeted the signal with fury. They perceive the Negev maneuver as an American move to check Russia’s drive for restored Middle East status and spoil its weapons export trade.
They have responded with a threat to equip Russia’s European embassies with systems capable of following US and NATO movements in the continent. It was spelled out Monday, March 19, by Col. Gen. Vladimir Popovkin, commander of Russia’s Space Forces.
He said space monitoring systems in Russian embassy compounds in several countries would track the launches of ballistic missiles abroad. In an interview to the Pace Technology News magazine, Popovkin said quantum-optical equipment posted at the embassies would pick up launches undetectable from Russian territory and adjust the trajectories of missile “killer vehicles” to a potential threat.
The Russian general accused the Americans of seeking not just a missile shield against Iran but the means of monitoring all ballistic missile launches in the European part of Russia and from Northern Fleet submarines, and knocking them out as soon as they took off.
“If the United States genuinely wanted protection from Iranian missiles, those defenses would have been stationed in Turkey, also a NATO member,” Popovkin said.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1277
Cold-War Doctrines Refuse to Die

Russia tests ballistic missiles
The new old Topol

Russia’s strategic bombers trouble quite Europe

Big Ivan, The Tsar Bomba (“King of Bombs”)
 
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eaf-f16

New Member
Yes, and if they really were to prevent Iran from getting nukes, as was stated on many occasions, those interceptors wouldn't be needed at all- the N Koreans are even less likely to threaten the EU/NATO.

BTW, many nations, besides Iran, located in the ME/W Asia already have IRBMs- Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, India, and until recently Iraq.
Egypt, Syria, and Libya don't have IRBM's though, Israel accuses Egypt of trying to develop one (Project T) from SCUD designs and with North Korean help and Iraq never even had that capability.

The only people on the Middle East who have IRBM's are the Saudis who have a old Chinese missiles which need replacing and the Iranians.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The only people on the Middle East who have IRBM's are the Saudis who have a old Chinese missiles which need replacing and the Iranians.
Depends what you place MRBMs/IRBMs at. The usual MRBM definition of 1,000 km:

- Israel has the Jericho line, with the operational Jericho 2 definitely being a MRBM at 1,500 km range.
- Egypt: was involved in "Badr 2000" in the late 80s; US has alleged that development is being continued under a different project; "Badr 2000" would have a range around 1,000 km, the current project is usually classed as a MRBM with 1,000-1,500 km. "Project T" is only a Scud-B variant, btw.
- Libya: "Al-Fatah", range ~1000 km; supposedly all "MTCR-class" missile programs were dismantled in 2004.

Upper-end SRBMs (>700 km):
- Syria has North-Korean "Scud-D" missiles, range ~700 km; last test was in Jan 2007. They also - supposedly - have a M-9 variant operational with a range of ~800 km.

The Saudi CSS-2 have a range around 2,400-2,500 km and are presumably next to disfunctional by now.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Well, they will eventually get them, just like NK did with its SRBMs- adding stages & upgrading them. Also, long range cruise missiles may be even easier to get!
Chronology of Events: Nonconventional Weapons and Ballistic Missiles in the Middle East

My point is that it's not only Iranian missiles that BMD may be used against. The US tends to look at capabilities, not current intentions.

America keeps saying its anti-missile system will not target Russia and to suggest otherwise would be absurd because Russia can overcome it. Well, Russia could overcome it today but what about in 15 years' time, when it is not just two facilities but a global system?
Russia would have nothing to fear if it was just the anti-missile base in Poland and the radar site in the Czech Republic but if the idea of a global anti-missile system becomes a reality, the nuclear capability of Russia, China and other countries will be undermined.
So when the Americans say they are not targeting Russia, they are right, but when Russian generals say that the US is targeting Russia, they are also right. It is two sides of the same coin. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6984320.stm
Pakistan is next door to Iran, and India is next door to Pakistan-, not to mention China who is next door to both. So , those interceptors could engage even ICBMs launched from W/Central China. And I failed to include Sudan & Yemen in that list!
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/sudan/missile/index.html
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Putin has nothing to do with this. If he was the one making em maybe. The russians have always been the best in aerospace engineering.
I'm curious as to how you believe the russians are the best at aerospace engineering?

Granted the Russians have done excellent work across a number of design fields - but why are they "the best"?

This is more of a rhetorical question as the forum policy of discouraging "best" threads is still present and applies in here.
 

KGB

New Member
I'd like to know what you think about the assertion (from the article Firehorse posted)
http://www.themarketoracle.org/Article3144.html

The idea is, that Russia is actually vulnerable to a first strike option by the US, that Russia's detection capacity is not up to standard, it's SSBNS can easily be shadowed. In addition there was a post by Rich stating that the B1b had given the US first strike capacity during the Reagan era, paving the way for US diplomatic success.

If the US had nuclear superiority then, it should certainly have it now, with the advent of the B2 and the decline of the USSR, etc. Thus, (back to the quoted article), any ABM program by the US would be a significant threat, even if it can only handle a limited number of intercepts. Why?

Because after a US first strike, the ABM system be able to deal with what little remains of Russia's retaliatory capacity (if any remain at all). In the crazy logic of nuclear war, this would explain the complaints about the ABM system, the renewed bomber patrols, and the deployment of the Topol system.

This explanation does not need us to imagine byzantine politics or idiotic generals. Only to assume that they're suspicious.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
Only to assume that they're suspicious.
They should be, and rightly so! China has even less warheads, less ICBMs, and less SSBNs. As for Russia, most of their ICBMs are in the Urals, European (Central) Russia, and the Altai region.
In order to understand Russian concerns, it is useful to examine how Russian military analysts might assess the capabilities of the proposed U.S. system. They would assess both the initial technical capabilities of the U.S. system and its potential capabilities as it matures. They would look twice at U.S. decisions to site the system as the Pentagon intends and rightly conclude that the system might be designed to counter Russia’s deterrent in addition to a nuclear attack from Iran.
Current and Potential Capabilities
The clearest high-level statement with regard to U.S. missile defense programs is Presidential National Security Presidential Directive 23 (NSPD-23), signed by President George W. Bush on December 6, 2002. The directive stated that the United States would begin to deploy missile defenses in 2004 “as a starting point for fielding improved and expanded missile defenses later.” NSPD-23 was preceded in January 2002 by a memorandum from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. The Rumsfeld memo directs the Missile Defense Agency to develop defense systems by using whatever technology is “available,” even if the capabilities produced are limited relative to what the defense must ultimately be able to do.
The Rumsfeld mandate and NSPD-23 would make it clear to Russian analysts that anything they see now will surely be upgraded to something far more capable as U.S. missile defense activities advance.
Russian analysts would surely know that the U.S. missile defense could be readily defeated by very simple countermeasures, such as decoys that would look much like basketball-sized balloons. The analysts and their political leaders also would rightly ask why the Americans are doing this.
What is the U.S. intent? How will Russia have to modernize its ICBMs and attack plans to keep up with the constantly changing character of the defense and the uncertainties created by it? What are the political motivations for the relentless U.S. efforts to build defenses obviously aimed at Russia? What is the relationship of the U.S. missile defense efforts to the constant push to expand NATO and encircle Russia with U.S. bases?
Russian analysts examining the system would also conclude that, at some unforeseen future time, under highly unpredictable and very specialized conditions, the European defense might be able to engage many hundreds of targets, thereby, in conjunction with other U.S. systems, threatening Russia’s nuclear deterrent. Such possibilities, however remote they would seem, would certainly conjure up apocalyptic threats to Russia’s national survival.
The source of these concerns would be basic scientific facts that could be used by the Department of Defense in the relentless and unpredictable modernization effort foretold by NSPD-23. The location of the radar in the Czech Republic and the interceptors in Poland, both close to European Russia, would make it possible, at least in principle, for the radar to track Russian ICBMs very early after a launch and to guide interceptors against them. Although the radar currently proposed for deployment will not have the capability to track hundreds of targets at long ranges simultaneously and the number of interceptors in the initial deployment would be small, Russian analysts would expect that the capabilities of the radar and interceptors could be substantially improved at a later time.
In particular, the limits of the radar’s abilities to track large numbers of targets simultaneously are determined by the antenna’s effective size and average radiated power. The Pentagon could enhance both of these variables, boosting the system’s capabilities.
Currently, the effective size and power of U.S. X-band radar antennas are limited by the number of transmit/receive modules that are mounted in their faces. Initial plans call for the EMR radar antenna to have roughly 20,000 such transmit/receive modules thinly distributed over its 100- to 120-square-meter antenna face, each capable of radiating 2 to 3 watts of average power.
Yet, the maximum number of transmit/receive modules that could be placed on an antenna face of 120 square meters is well more than 300,000. Such a modernization would require the complete replacement and reconstruction of the antenna, but it would result in a vast increase in the number of targets that could simultaneously be engaged by the radar because the “effective area” of the antenna is proportional to the number of transmit/receive modules. If the number of transmit/receive modules were to be increased by a factor of 16 to 17, then both the effective area of the antenna and the radiated power would increase by the same factor. The two factors combine to provide a nearly 300-fold (17 x 17 = 289) increase in capability.
Currently, the ability to build X-band radars is limited by the rate at which transmit/receive modules are being manufactured. The modules are also expensive, currently about $1,000 each. The current limits on manufacturing, however, can be expected to change over time as techniques improve. In addition, as the missile defense program moves forward, the manufacturing base for these modules might grow. Thus, Russia fears that the X-band radar could target 300 times more missiles when a mature capability becomes available.
Russian analysts would also be concerned that the United States might expand the number of interceptors in Poland to take advantage of such an EMR’s prodigious abilities to guide numerous interceptors simultaneously. Indeed, unless one believes Iran will stop building long-range missiles once they get to 10, such an expansion must be expected. Once interceptor manufacturing facilities are operating, additional interceptors could be obtained by extending manufacturing runs, by expanding manufacturing facilities, or both. The primary obstacle to an expansion would be political: increasing the number of interceptors would require modifications to an existing agreement with Poland. If Poland is already hosting U.S. interceptors, the biggest political obstacle would already have been overcome.
Threat to Russia’s Deterrent
The location of the radar in the Czech Republic and missile defense interceptors in Poland, close to European-based Russian ICBM installations, would raise questions among Russian analysts about the potential threat to Russian ICBMs based in European Russia.
The ground-based interceptors in some ways resemble ICBMs themselves. They are extremely large, two-stage ballistic missiles, weighing roughly 21,500 kilograms each, with the two stages derived from the Minuteman series of ICBMs. They boast the same diameter as the Minuteman III’s two upper stages and even use the same shroud. Indeed, if an interceptor were armed with a typical 1,100-kilogram Minuteman III payload of a missile bus and three nuclear warheads, it could carry that payload more than 6,000 kilometers. The interceptor would only have to carry a kill vehicle weighing 70 kilograms, allowing it to achieve a speed 40 percent faster than an ICBM on a trajectory from Russia to the United States and permitting the interceptor to catch a nuclear-armed Russian ICBM from behind.
Despite claims to the contrary, U.S. interceptors launched from a Polish site could intercept the 18 to 25 Russian SS-25 ICBMs based in Vypolzovo, roughly 340 kilometers northwest of Moscow. Furthermore, missiles launched from all of the other European-based Russian ICBM fields would be much easier to engage. The 40 percent faster speed of the defense interceptors relative to the ICBMs and the early-tracking information provided by the EMR in the Czech Republic would allow the defense system to engage essentially all Russian ICBMs launched against the continental United States from Russian sites west of the Urals. It is difficult to see why any well-informed Russian analyst would not find such a potential situation alarming.
It would also be clear to Russian analysts that the placement of the EMR and interceptor sites is not optimal for the defense of Europe. Under the current plan, part of Europe is not covered and must instead be covered by additional shorter-range defenses such as Theater High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) and Aegis. A European system covering more of Europe could provide greater redundancy by using these shorter-range ground- and sea-based systems as a second layer. Ground-based interceptors positioned in Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, or Albania; Aegis sea-based interceptors; and a radar closer to Iran would be better positioned to defend Europe from an Iranian attack and would be too far from Russia to pose a threat to Russian ICBMs. To a Russian analyst, the only obvious technical reason for choosing the Czech Republic for the EMR and Poland for interceptors would be to provide interceptors close to Russia that can be guided by the nearby EMR, making it possible for the European-based radar and interceptors to be added as a layer against Russia to the already developing U.S. continental defense.
Concern about possible future U.S. missile defense capabilities would be amplified by knowledge among Russian analysts that U.S. Trident submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), as well as U.S. Minuteman III ICBMs, are each capable of destroying Russian silo-based ICBMs. Internal documents produced by high-level technical experts in the Soviet Union during the late 1980s[1] unambiguously show that Russian technical analysts had concluded that Russian silo-based missiles could be wiped out by then-existing U.S. forces. Today’s U.S. SLBM and ICBM forces are yet more capable and pose an even more overwhelming threat to Russian ICBMs. Russia has been reducing its arsenal of ICBMs and converting those that remain to single warhead missiles, but an increasingly capable U.S. defense will create strong incentives for the Russians to reverse this process. The concern of Russian military analysts would be that a future crisis between Russia and the United States might lead to U.S. strikes on Russian ICBMs followed by the use of a mature missile defense to reduce or eliminate the consequences of Russian efforts to retaliate.
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2007_10/LewisPostol.asp
September 26th, 1983: The day the world almost died

BTW,
Although Israel has never commented on it, it is accepted knowledge that the country possesses 200-400 nuclear weapons, including thermonuclear and perhaps neutron weapons. For delivering them, Israel has aircraft bombs, Jericho II missiles (similar to the US Pershing, range 1200km), and possibly an ICBM version of the Shavit space launch vehicle, with a possible range of 7,000 km and with a 300kg nuclear warhead.
http://www.unobserver.com/layout5.php?id=4205&blz=1
BMD in E. Europe eventually will be able to cover N. Europe/Arctic trajectories those Russian & Chinese missiles (in the S/SW of the Urals/Altai) are to use before entering NORAD AOR.
 

Incognito129

Banned Member
I'm curious as to how you believe the russians are the best at aerospace engineering?

Granted the Russians have done excellent work across a number of design fields - but why are they "the best"?

This is more of a rhetorical question as the forum policy of discouraging "best" threads is still present and applies in here.
ok possibly at the most one of the best.
 

nevidimka

New Member
Its how the Soviets/Russians are able to build amazing flying machines without the computing technology of the west nor the financial capability like in the west.
Planes like Big25, Tu 160, mig21, flanker, fulcrums are no mean feat considering how they are as lethal as those coming out from US, or how they have no analogy to those coming out from Europe.
 

Chrom

New Member
Its how the Soviets/Russians are able to build amazing flying machines without the computing technology of the west nor the financial capability like in the west.
.
Both points are wrong premise. "Communist" block econmic was about equal to "western" block economic in size. Also computing technology, while a bit behind, wasnt completely non-existent as sometimes portrayed. So in the end, Soviets spend a lot of resources for military development and became good result from it. No wonder.
 

noseeum

New Member
Politics aside, would it really be so bad if someone could (and would) knock down any MRBM+ before it could start its downward ballistic arc? Think it over for a minute. If Russia could build it, or China, or Pakistan, would you have the same arguments against it?

Regardless, the US is building the system. That is the reality. Placement of tracking radar can be critical, and Poland looks nice. Turkey won't work for the US because the Turkish have proven to be unreliable in the past.
 

Chrom

New Member
Politics aside, would it really be so bad if someone could (and would) knock down any MRBM+ before it could start its downward ballistic arc? Think it over for a minute. If Russia could build it, or China, or Pakistan, would you have the same arguments against it?

Regardless, the US is building the system. That is the reality. Placement of tracking radar can be critical, and Poland looks nice. Turkey won't work for the US because the Turkish have proven to be unreliable in the past.
Remember, ABM threaty was signed in 70x. 30 years ago. USA and USSR didnt signed threaty for nothing. Got it? ABM was already built back then, and now it is 10 times cheaper (and more dungerous from strategic POV).

Besides, the USA building NOT MRBM defence. USA building ICBM ABM. This is cruicial difference.
 

Dalregementet

New Member
They are funny...

our little cossacks :D . Guys, wht don´t you drop "We are the best" and making the best planes etc - it´s so ridiculous! We all know that SU27, SU30 etc can fly and that they fly good but without state of the art electronics the pilots are dead meat. Russia doesn´t have state of the art electronics, in fact they lack that industry as such if you compare with the West. Russian defence material has always lost in duels with western systems and the russians has always blamed it on the (poor) operators :) .

In Sweden, we have a good knowledge of the Russian planes and we feel confident that our plane, Gripen, can take on everything that Russia have, now and in the future. We actually "borrowed" an SU27 radar that we have evaluated at the SAAB site in Linköping - NOT impressed of the technology :eek:nfloorl:

So, dear cossacks, keep building more aerodynamic and faster planes and leave the electronics to us ;)

Also, regarding Russias capabilities in general - the Nordic countries together have a higher GDP than Russia... :nutkick
 

DefConGuru

New Member
I wouldn't worry too much about Russia, they feel the only way they can achieve international respect is through its armed forces and by staging something aggressive from time to time. Remember this is the same military that got handed by the Chechens, who initially were even less armed than Liechtenstein. While they may come out with a breakthrough here and there, implementation is a totally different story. :finger
 

Dalregementet

New Member
Agree!

I totally agree! In the cold war era, the west and Russia (Soviet Union) sort of helped each other. Russia by intimidating anf threating other countries, over exaggerating their capabilities. The west also had an interest in over exaggerating Russias capabilities because it´s soo much easier to get extra funding for new wapons if you have a scary opponent. So, we beefed up our military expenditure to a level where our cossack brothers wrecked their whole economy. Now, they are selling raw material to an extent where they actually can afford to buy something :D . But hey, conventionally, are they a threat? Nope. And if they would use nuclear weapons, they would be toasted themselves - so nukes, by definitions are not useful for more than "mutual destruction".

Right now the russkies doesn´t know how to handle the US ABM shield. On the other hand, they claim it to be a threat to their nuclear deterrent, on the other hand, they claim that they have new missiles that easily can penetrate such a shield... If so, what's the problem :confused: . I mean, if they can penetrate the shild, then it´s no big deal that the US is putting up one - right?
 

Chrom

New Member
I wouldn't worry too much about Russia, they feel the only way they can achieve international respect is through its armed forces and by staging something aggressive from time to time. Remember this is the same military that got handed by the Chechens, who initially were even less armed than Liechtenstein. While they may come out with a breakthrough here and there, implementation is a totally different story. :finger
Nope, vast resources require very strong army to be protected. Without strong army the resources will do no good... As for Chechen, should we bring Vietnam here? Or, for that matter, Mogadishu vs USA (Black Hawk down)?

Also, it is very funny to hear about respect and "exaggerated" armed forces from a country which spends half world's expendure on military, while having big economical difficulties...

One thing is sure: USSR bancrupted NOT becouse of military over-expending. The military spending in USSR was constant for last 30 years, and there were absolutely no reason for any economical difficulties. USSR foreign debt was very, very small. So, there were no basical economical problems. The main problem was very wrong consumer market and very bad consumer goods distribution - not actually manufacturing.

Sure, average USSR citizen lived worse than average West EU or USA citizen. But better than for example Italy, Greece, Spain or Portugal citizen. That speaks a lot.
 
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DefConGuru

New Member
Nope, vast resources require very strong army to be protected. Without strong army the resources will do no good... As for Chechen, should we bring Vietnam here? Or, for that matter, Mogadishu vs USA (Black Hawk down)?

Also, it is very funny to hear about respect and "exaggerated" armed forces from a country which spends half world's expendure on military, while having big econmocial difficulties...
Vietnam and Mogadishu are on opposite corners of the earth, unpopular wars that the public and many a soldier did not want to fight due to few clear objectives. Chechnya on the other hand is right in Russia's backyard, it literally is inside Russia and is a big slap in the face to the Russian government to have one of your own territories successfully engage the federal government on the battlefield. Much different situation, mobilization, intelligence, everything is made ten times easier for the Russians, yet it still took them a decade to establish a foothold, on their own soil.

Russia is over-rated, huge military expenditure does not mean better army, and its not even huge, 20 billion a year or so.
 
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