Are Russians fleecing Indians?

[ROCK45]

Points

Both good points but I see you don't share my view that RSG MIG could do a little better. That's alright that's what makes these forums fun. Do you know if any other SMT deliveries were made? I'm new so I don't know if were allowed to link to another site because airliners.net has 2 pictures of the what I think is Algeria 9.19 SMT Fulcrum.


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Smile

 

[onslaught]

It's a good thing this hasn't turned into a flaming argument like some other threads have in the past. Although Algeria hasn't bought the MiG-29M/M2, this article says that Syria has, along with some MiG-31s. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's something to look into. As for MiG-29SMT exports, Yemen has some and they say the Syria has some too.

Here's the link for the Syrian MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-31:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF26Ak05.html

 

[ROCK45]

Old Article

Hi onslaught
No reason for flaming were allowed to have different views. Chrom made a good point SMT could be delivered sooner. I found out the Algeria deal is a little more complex Algeria owes Russia money from past arms deals which is to be forgotten and some natural gas deal is to worked out. I'm not the person to explain that so ask around or look it up. Tanks, ships, etc is part of this huge deal signed between Russia and Algeria as far as know it's going alright.

The link you attached is old and nothing ever came out of it. A friend of mind from a different forum told me that (5) Mig-31E were on some Russian line being upgraded but nothing ever came of it. As far as I was able to find only two SMT customers so far Yemen and Algeria. Yemen got the 9.18 model thiner spine and Algeria got the 9.19 model thicker spine, thus more fuel. Syria has a number of older Mig-29s but you know I think they owe Russia money too and talk was anything sent to them or sold could be going to Iran. Syria AF to me buying 5 Mig-31E doesn't seem to make sense there are some cool things those huge interceptors could do but better choices could be made. Buying 2 squadrons of new Mig-35 or upgrading what they have would be more useful I think. The Mig-29M1 or M2 has never been produced so Syria couldn't have bought them. The Mig-35 could be a winner for Russia if the AESA radar can be finished and this aircraft gets to market.

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Wink

 

[eaf-f16]

Can't remember seeing anything bad written at all about the MKI Flankers only one story.

Su-30 upgrade restricts Indian air force fleet
By Peter Foster
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...upgrade-restricts-indian-air-force-fleet.html

I'm not sure where they stand now maybe somebody has a update.

Thanks for the article.

With its initial batch of 18 Su-30Ks having been retired after less than a decade of use, and licensed production of the Su-30MKI taking place at Hindustan Aeronautics' Nasik facility at a current rate of around 13 a year, standardisation work to around nine early Russian-built MKIs has restricted India's frontline fleet.

Do the Indians fly over 50 hours a month or something?! Why did they get retired?

 

[ROCK45]

Hours per month

You pick up on that too? It doesn't give a reason for the retirement I just assume more efficient models were coming online? The source of the story is known so it's not some town small time news service I don't know. Maybe somebody here could shed a little light on that issue. My question is are there still Flankers grounded or not flying? It could something very simple to explain this maybe somebody knows and chime in.

 

[onslaught]

It looks like the Indians will swap the Su-30K's for Su-30MKI's. I guess this could be considered as "retiring" an aircraft.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/26/stories/2006052604291300.htm

 

[ROCK45]

Mki

If looks like these are the same Flankers and explains it. It's funny in a way I always think of India of having hundreds of Flankers but really it's a work in progress. A very capable weapons platform for India and other for many years to come. For Russia I always wonder what a aircraft a little larger then a F-15C and a little smaller then an Su-30 would look be like made with lighters metals but still packing those powerful power plants? I guess what I'm saying badly is a Flanker a few tons lighter?

 

[Chrom]

It's a good thing this hasn't turned into a flaming argument like some other threads have in the past. Although Algeria hasn't bought the MiG-29M/M2, this article says that Syria has, along with some MiG-31s. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's something to look into. As for MiG-29SMT exports, Yemen has some and they say the Syria has some too.

Here's the link for the Syrian MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-31:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF26Ak05.html

This is mistake. Possibly there was some talk with Syria but as much as i know no contracts were made. Syria probably have some Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard (i'm not sure here) , but certainly no Mig-29M - here i'm 100% sure.

With Algeria, as much as i understand, it is much more political issue than technical one. May be even purery political issue.

 

[mysterious]

Chrom: Political issue meaning just a Russo-Algerian bilateral issue or what? I ask this because it seems odd for the Algerians to not get Mig-29s but now they're getting Su-30MKAs.

Aside from that, I havent seen the Phalcon issue come up here so here goes: AFM is reporting that the deliveries of the Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft that Israel is to install the Phalcon system on; have been pushed back by almost a year with the first aircraft to be delivered by Russia in Sept. 2008 instead of early Dec 2007 as was originally planned. The last of the three aircraft will be ready & shipped to Israel for Phalcon installation in August 2010.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom: Political issue meaning just a Russo-Algerian bilateral issue or what? I ask this because it seems odd for the Algerians to not get Mig-29s but now they're getting Su-30MKAs.

Aside from that, I havent seen the Phalcon issue come up here so here goes:

I understood it so: In Algeria different party (party in general sence) came to power. This party have different view on Algeria-Russia and Algeria-France relations, and try to change many agreements.

 

[ROCK45]

Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft

Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft was that a Indian contact? I thought that was canceled and India was going with a pure Russian made? Russia was late delivering Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft and Il-78 tankers to China. There were production problems, cost overruns, and in the end I believe construction to switched to a new location. I found this site which covers what I mention I don't if it's the best source. At least from here you can research further maybe get Russian sources or maybe Chinese sources on this matter.

http://canadadefencesovereignty.blogspot.com/2007/08/chinese-il-76-saga-continues.html

 

[Chrom]

Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft was that a Indian contact? I thought that was canceled and India was going with a pure Russian made? Russia was late delivering Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft and Il-78 tankers to China. There were production problems, cost overruns, and in the end I believe construction to switched to a new location. I found this site which covers what I mention I don't if it's the best source. At least from here you can research further maybe get Russian sources or maybe Chinese sources on this matter.

http://canadadefencesovereignty.blogspot.com/2007/08/chinese-il-76-saga-continues.html

Yes, Chinese Il-76 contract was canceled. The main aircraft plant in ex-USSR republic which supposed to produce aircrafts is nearly dead, and have big problem producing anything. The pure russian-made aircrafts cost much higher so there were no way to fullfill contract at original terms. Not a pretty situation for both Russia and China.

The situation is a result of economical (and political) chaos still found in Ex-USSR republics and Russia after USSR destruction. Basically, any client should understand the cirumstances and always keep in mind such possibilty.

 

[ROCK45]

mysterious
the Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft that Israel is to install the Phalcon system on

On the above I though India canceled and decided to go pure Russian and leaving out the Israeli's? Some type of AWACS Il-38 upgrade or A-50? Or did India decide on P-3? Maybe India changed there mind or something I seem to remember something about a year back concerning this.

Part-II
I didn't know the Chinese contracts being canceled I thought production was moved to a new location and Russia was taking a huge loss on it. Doesn't Russia have to honor the contracts? Where else is China going to get the transports and tankers?

 

[Chrom]

Part-II
I didn't know the Chinese contracts being canceled I thought production was moved to a new location and Russia was taking a huge loss on it. Doesn't Russia have to honor the contracts? Where else is China going to get the transports and tankers?

Hard to tell. On the one hand, allthought russian side is formally quilty, it cant do much about Uzbekistan plant which is not russian. China have all rights to demand penalties.

On the other hand, for Russia it might be cheaper to just pay penalties and forget the thing alltogether. After all, no way Russia can deliver these aircrafts in time no matter what - so contract is void anyway. But paying penalities will affect Russia-China relations bad way, and both China and Russia dont want it and will not benefit from it. Thats why new conversations are made.

 

[ROCK45]

Outside Russia

I see what you mean now the Uzbekistan plant isn't in Russia. So the fine people of Uzbekistan are at fault here I understand now. Doesn't Russia's own air force used both types? Who produces them now since the Uzbekistan plant is closed or unable to carry out contracts of this manor? I see this has turn political between Russia and China and assume Uzbekistan. I don't follow this part of most arms deals the political side doesn't interests me as much as the arms in question. China and Russia will work this out some how it just seems a waste throwing a very large arms contract. The way China is growing another five or eight years more aircraft would have been needed and maybe a series of current aircraft upgrades and so on. Maybe in that time the Uzbekistan plant can work things out and start producing these fine transport and tanker aircraft.

 

[Chrom]

I see what you mean now the Uzbekistan plant isn't in Russia. So the fine people of Uzbekistan are at fault here I understand now. Doesn't Russia's own air force used both types?

No, it is not this simple. Russia havent ensured the deliveres. Uzbekistan plant gave impossible promisses. Remember, Tashkent plant is independend sub-contractor, and Russia have little tools to do something if they are refusing/unable to produce aircrafts. Yes, Russia use both aircraft types - but they were produced earler. The repair/modification could be done at russian plants, but all-new production require long preparations and major investments.

Who produces them now since the Uzbekistan plant is closed or unable to carry out contracts of this manor? I see this has turn political between Russia and China and assume Uzbekistan. I don't follow this part of most arms deals the political side doesn't interests me as much as the arms in question. China and Russia will work this out some how it just seems a waste throwing a very large arms contract. The way China is growing another five or eight years more aircraft would have been needed and maybe a series of current aircraft upgrades and so on. Maybe in that time the Uzbekistan plant can work things out and start producing these fine transport and tanker aircraft.

There are 2 possibilites: Either Russia/China give a LOT of money and restore production on Tashkent plant, or Russia/China spend a lot of money and build new production line in Russia. Guess what Russian goverment will choose?

 

[tphuang]

the entire IL-76 situation is a mess. China will not sign another big military deal until the Russians honour their contract. And it hasn't really made a major purchase other than the 50 AL-31FN that they just signed. Which is kind of interesting, because the Russians supposedly lost money on the last batch of 100 AL-31FN they signed. In the end, many companies in the past have taken losses to fulfill existing contracts to maintain market share and maintain good name. If the Russians don't want to play this game of capitalism, they will eventually loose contracts to this. All I can say is that China will not buy anything Russian as long as IL-76 situation remains unsolved, so either the Russians budge or they can loose the Chinese market completely.

 

[Chrom]

the entire IL-76 situation is a mess. China will not sign another big military deal until the Russians honour their contract. And it hasn't really made a major purchase other than the 50 AL-31FN that they just signed. Which is kind of interesting, because the Russians supposedly lost money on the last batch of 100 AL-31FN they signed. In the end, many companies in the past have taken losses to fulfill existing contracts to maintain market share and maintain good name. If the Russians don't want to play this game of capitalism, they will eventually loose contracts to this. All I can say is that China will not buy anything Russian as long as IL-76 situation remains unsolved, so either the Russians budge or they can loose the Chinese market completely.

All i can say - for such big contracts politic always play major role, and any country can cancel/refuse any contract if it is in they interests. The prime example here being various USA or EU sanctions which affect existing contracts. Ofc China wants IL-76 for very low price... but the train already gone. Again, i'm sure everyone can find such examples about canceled contracts for any country and any "good name".

 

[ROCK45]

Others

I wonder if a Europen aircraft maker could slip in and grab the market? It just seems wrong that Russia wouldn't take on a venture like this? China is expanding into so many regions that long range transport and cargo aircraft are a must. I could see this as a money maker for years to come but I guess the up front money needed to setup the production lines is too high.

 

[Chrom]

I wonder if a Europen aircraft maker could slip in and grab the market? It just seems wrong that Russia wouldn't take on a venture like this? China is expanding into so many regions that long range transport and cargo aircraft are a must. I could see this as a money maker for years to come but I guess the up front money needed to setup the production lines is too high.

Sure EU maker can slip & grab. But EU maker is also subject to various sanctions and "considerations" to higher degree. So, addidionaly of being much, much more expencive - it is also no more trustworthy than russians...

Btw, EU/USA aircrafts makers already grabbed a huge chunk of chinese civil aircraft market - this was result of USSR destruction and degradation of civil aircraft production.