Japanese Stealth Fighter

[Schumacher]

Looks like just mainly another attempt to get US to release F-22.
When US refused to sell F-22, Japan threw a hissy fit & 'threatened' to get EF2000. Some fanboys actually seriously thought US would allow it to buy from non-US source.
No surprise that US called its bluff & I saw a recent news that the decision has been postponed to at least late 09 & even then they'll likely settle for upgrading the F-15s.
No big deal really as long as they're under the US umbrella.

 

[swerve]

Looks like just mainly another attempt to get US to release F-22.
When US refused to sell F-22, Japan threw a hissy fit & 'threatened' to get EF2000. Some fanboys actually seriously thought US would allow it to buy from non-US source.
No surprise that US called its bluff & I saw a recent news that the decision has been postponed to at least late 09 & they'll settle for upgrading the F-15s for now.
No big deal really as long as they're under the US umbrella.

Japan does buy weapons from non-US sources (though not combat aircraft so far), & the USA can't veto Japanese purchases. It can apply pressure, but if the Japanese push back, what can the USA do? Withdraw the nuclear guarantee? The Chinese would panic (they really, really want the USA to keep providing Japan with that guarantee - the reason should be obvious - and the USA wants to keep providing it for the same reason). Threaten to withdraw US conventional forces? Errr - the USA wants those bases as much as Japan. Trade sanctions? Nope, not allowed under the USAs own laws.

BTW, the Japanese postponing a decision on buying fighters might be seen as Japan calling the US bluff, showing it really, really wants F-22.

 

[Schumacher]

.... It can apply pressure, but if the Japanese push back, what can the USA do? ......

That's the key question isn't it ? IF the Japanese push back ....
We don't know how USA would respond because the Japanese have never pushed back so far. Judging from that it doesn't look it's any closer to getting the F-22 or EF2000, I don't think we'll find out anytime soon what exactly will US do if pushed back.

.... BTW, the Japanese postponing a decision on buying fighters might be seen as Japan calling the US bluff, showing it really, really wants F-22.

Are you sure ?, I'd think Japan calling US's bluff would be it going ahead to buy those EF2000.

 

[eaf-f16]

Well F-22 has 2d thrust vectoring and ATD-x had 3d thrust vectoring. And ATD-x is a bit smaller and lighter than F-22 this mean it's more maneuverable.

3-D TVC is not the ultimate advantage in air combat. The MiG-35 has the world's best 3-D TVC nozzles, does it mean it's better than the F-22? It may just give the MiG-35 a slight advantage in WVR combat. And from the looks of it. the ATD-X looks just as big or a little bigger than an F-15 so I wouldn't call it smaller and lighter than the F-22. Plus, the F-5 is alot smaller and lighter than the F-22, does that mean the F-5 is more maneuverable? No.

And this is just a technology demonstrator . It doesn't have weapon systems, sensors, etc. It's FAR from being anything close to an F-22.

 

[swerve]

...And from the looks of it. the ATD-X looks just as big or a little bigger than an F-15 so I wouldn't call it smaller and lighter than the F-22. ....

If you read all the supporting stuff, you'll find that it is (or will be, if it is actually built & flies) a lot smaller & lighter than either the F-22 or F-15. But you're right to say that does not necessarily mean it is more manoeuverable.

 

[nevidimka]

Hmm. he japanese anime artist's have much more imagination.

 

[phreeky]

And to answer your other question, no Japanese engineers are not superior to American engineering sorry.

We've been spoon feeding tech to you for the past 100 years.

Not me, I'm certainly not Japanese thanks.

The superiority of American aircraft is a $$$ thing, and an experience thing from the vast number of years the USA has spent building a very large number of aircraft.

To even suggest that one countries engineers are superior to anothers is not only somewhat rude, but very very ignorant.

 

[Todjaeger]

This has been discussed before. The pictures & text were originally posted on the website of the Technical Research & Development Institute of the Japanese Defence Agency (now Ministry). I verified this myself at the time, by visiting the site.

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/index.html

I can't find the whole thing there now, but one of the pictures is on page 18 of this official document -

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/misc/publication/mlterm/summary.pdf

And on page 23, under "Future Weapon System Technologies" it says "Aircraft technology (fighters) Stealthy and agile configuration ... " - in a 5-15 year timescale.

It's also here - http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/programs/air/air.html - , labelled "Full scale RCS test model", and "We research on a technology for the flight control system that integrates engine thrust vectoring and flight control, and a technology for the optimized aerodynamics shape to enable both stealth and high-maneuver capabilities."

In other words, it's absolutely 100% official & public. It isn't something some blogger invented.

For some strange reason, my system will not allow me to open the first two links without updating to allow for the Japanese characters, so I as yet cannot comment on anything there... Not sure what the issue is. :unknown

Having said that, I will accept that I was incorrect and some/all the material posted is correct.

Having said that, there are a few thoughts that come to mind if someone could locate sources or explanations for them.

One thing I noticed was that the trailing edge of the wing is not parallel to the trailing edge of the tailfins. From what I understand about managing LO radar characteristics, much of it has to do with the shape (shaping) of the aircraft with various edges at the same angle (intake to leading edge of wing & tailfin, etc). This is done to minimize the area which radar signals have to reflect off of in undesired directions. Looking at the overhead shot, it appears that the leading edges of wing and tailfin are in parallel, but the trailing edges are not, or at least not completely since the tailfin itself has two separate trailing edges, each at different angles. The inner (closest to engines) trailing edge does appear to be at the same angle or close to it as the wing trailing edge, but the rest of the tailfin seems to cut that at a 45 degree angle. As a result, I wonder if the LO features are intended to be 'all-aspect' or primarily intended to be frontal aspect.

Another item of curiousity is how much concern Japan has with others possibly learning of Japanese LO efforts and developments. While France might have a test facility well suited to conducting RCS testing of an airframe mock-up, I would think espionage would be a concern. Is there any information available on how Japan expects to manage the testing so that the Japanese design is not compromised and/or the developments do not end up getting incorporated into a non-Japanese aircraft (at least without Japanese approval)?

-Cheers

 

[Falstaff]

And to answer your other question, no Japanese engineers are not superior to American engineering sorry.

We've been spoon feeding tech to you for the past 100 years.

Complete BS, really. Any engineer will tell you what e.g. Kaizen and the Toyota Production System mean to the industrial world today. Japan has very capable engineers and quite a bit of areospace industry. And unlike many engineers especially from two major rising asian powers they are very creative.

They are just facing the same sort of problems as e.g. the big EU 4 (UK, France, Italy and Germany) which basically means by no means the same magnitude of defence spending as the US.

 

[icekid]

someone mentioned that EU 4 had gone for similar moves as Japan.. Can anyone give me a link for EU4 concept or TD stealth planes?

 

[suddendeath]

hello the chinese have already a stealth program initial testing
is would be around 2014 and induction 2018 good for the Japanese the americans refused the f22 sales.so they made their own.sorry if someone is offended.

 

[icekid]

I am quite sure that the U.S. politics will be involved in the future production of this state of the art stealth fighter jet just like what happened to LAVI!!

 

[McGooghanhan]

Looks like an F-15 crossed with an F-22, I am interested to see the avionics that they put into it knowing Japan I bet it will be like going for a ride on a spaceship.

First glance reminded me of the YF-23,Black Widow, I believe. Beautiful aircraft.
mc

 

[swerve]

I am quite sure that the U.S. politics will be involved in the future production of this state of the art stealth fighter jet just like what happened to LAVI!!

While US politics may be involved, the Lavi isn't comparable. That depended on US money & US technical assistance, & the Israeli military as a whole depends on US money. Japan doesn't get any US subsidies, & it can, if it chooses, politely tell the USA to mind its own business.

 

[defhurl]

While US politics may be involved, the Lavi isn't comparable. That depended on US money & US technical assistance, & the Israeli military as a whole depends on US money. Japan doesn't get any US subsidies, & it can, if it chooses, politely tell the USA to mind its own business.

Not really. Japan, although it is peaceful and has proven that it has changed, does not dictate the relationship. Japan is entirely dependent on new US innovations and bilateral trade. They might be big but they have no leverage against us.

Japan's economy set to enter long term recession. Its economy is expected to shrink by 20-25% over the next few decades.

 

[swerve]

Not really. Japan, although it is peaceful and has proven that it has changed, does not dictate the relationship. Japan is entirely dependent on new US innovations and bilateral trade. They might be big but they have no leverage against us.

Japan dependent on US innovations? Good grief, man, what planet are you from? And what has Japanese leverage against the USA got to do with anything? What's being discussed here is how much US leverage over Japan, which is an entirely different thing.

Japan's economy set to enter long term recession. Its economy is expected to shrink by 20-25% over the next few decades.

And what clairvoyant told you that? Did he or she use a crystal ball, or tea leaves, or toss yarrow sticks, or was it good old-fashioned entrails? nfloorl:

 

[alexsa]

Japan's economy set to enter long term recession. Its economy is expected to shrink by 20-25% over the next few decades.

Really 20 to 25%. Econdomic intelligence suggest a modest 'real growht' until 2011 of about 1.3 to 1.8%.

http://www.economist.com/countries/Japan/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Economic Data

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/ja.html

Even if japan does slip into recession figures above 5% (appears unlikely) suggest serious econdomic melt down while 20 to 25% is a catastrophy. Japans economy is worth 5.103 trillion dollars on the official exchange rate. A drop of 25% is a loss of 1.276 trillion dollars in five years which is a loss of $10000 for every man, woman and child our of the econmomy in that period. Given this year is showing growth there is no projection of recession next year we can be reasonably certain this will not happen in the next 18 to 24 months so you are suggesting a massive economic loss a 36 month period over over 8% per annum average.

Sorry I think you plucked this figure from the sky.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Such a massive reduction of GDP is allmost unheard of (great depression)! What mechanism would create such a truely massive crash, huh? The circumstances that created the great depression can not conceavibly occur again thanks to containment measures like macroeconomic stimulous and deposit insurance. Whats going to cause such a thing now? Everything i've read states that Japan is probably in for annother ~5 years of low to no growth, at worst a small resession. Sounds like BS to me...

 

[defhurl]

Japan dependent on US innovations? Good grief, man, what planet are you from? And what has Japanese leverage against the USA got to do with anything? What's being discussed here is how much US leverage over Japan, which is an entirely different thing.

Everything? Im sorry if it negatively affects your self-esteem, but Japan has no leverage over the US. There's a reason why the Japanese cry every year for us to leave, but we never do.

I found it funny how Japan actually believed that they have enough influence over us to have us sell f-22's.

This is just the reality of things.

And what clairvoyant told you that? Did he or she use a crystal ball, or tea leaves, or toss yarrow sticks, or was it good old-fashioned entrails? nfloorl:

Feel free to actually respond in a coherent manner instead of throwing insults to make yourself feel better about Japan.

Such a massive reduction of GDP is allmost unheard of (great depression)! What mechanism would create such a truely massive crash, huh? The circumstances that created the great depression can not conceavibly occur again thanks to containment measures like macroeconomic stimulous and deposit insurance. Whats going to cause such a thing now? Everything i've read states that Japan is probably in for annother ~5 years of low to no growth, at worst a small resession. Sounds like BS to me...

Such a massive reduction has never been seen, because until the 70's population growth rates have been extremely high. The generations after the baby boomers have the lowest birth rates per women in human history. In terms of a country economy its size is directly correlated with technology and the number of citizens.

Japan's population is expected to decrease to 90 million by 2050. Their population led recession is probably going to be compounded by the subprime crisis here in the states.

 

[alexsa]

Feel free to actually respond in a coherent manner instead of throwing insults to make yourself feel better about Japan.

I thinkl you need to be a bit careful here given you have not justified your claims. makeing spurous arguments that the japanese economy will shrink over the next few decades without evidence is hardly a coherant argument. Where do you draw this conclusion from?

Such a massive reduction has never been seen, because until the 70's population growth rates have been extremely high. The generations after the baby boomers have the lowest birth rates per women in human history. In terms of a country economy its size is directly correlated with technology and the number of citizens.

Japan's population is expected to decrease to 90 million by 2050. Their population led recession is probably going to be compounded by the subprime crisis here in the states.

While aging populations present a challenge in developed economies they do not automatically mean a whilesale reduction in economic growht of the order you are suggesting as other factors will come into play. As a case point Australia has been very near to ZPG for some time and has an aging population, however, this has not resulted in serious econmoc recession (in fact it ahs been seadly growing) and certainly not the wholesale econmic collased you are suggesting. Even over 20 years a reduction of 25% is massive.

Looking at their 2006 predicitions from Deutsche Bank Research they agree with you that Japan's population will drop slowly between 2006 and 2020 but still predict low growth over the same period in the order of 1.3%. In fact the same predicion is made for Italy and Switzeland but with a propotionaly greater population drop but with greater growth in GDP. Such conclusion do not support your argument.

In fact while Japan's fertiltiyt rate is dropping this is not an isolated trend (have a look at China for example)

http://auspecc.anu.edu.au/2007_conference/PECC GM Final Presentations -%

The same presentaion sees the impact of aging on pert captia grown in japan at about -0.5%. this doe not mean growht will be negative but this fact will have a negative effect on any growth that may occur making low growth such as 1.3% more likely.

So on this basis I am very interested to hear where your draw your conclusions from, for the sake of a coherent argument.