Japanese Stealth Fighter

[icekid]

http://dailylark.blogspot.com/2008/01/mitsubishi-atd-x-shinshin-japanese.html

Oh my God.. I was surprised. It looks so beautiful.

Looks aside. It has 3d thrust vectoring. (watch the video)

The design of the aircraft reflects those of several American fourth and fifth generation fighters, most notably the F-22

I think US has helped the Japanese.

A mock-up has already undergone preliminary ground tests in France, the report said. Friday's decision by the ministry to push ahead with the multi billion-yen (multi million-dollar; multi million-euro) project means developers will start working toward flight tests, with production in about 10 years, it said. The reports also say that there was a possible involvement of US Lockheed Martin in the development of ATD-X.

This suggests my argument too.

I think it's better than F-22 what do you guys think?

 

[eaf-f16]

I think it's better than F-22 what do you guys think?

And what on Earth gave you that idea?

 

[Aquastorm]

Well, it does look more elegant than the F-22. But it'll be quite some time before we see this bird flying in the skies.

 

[Todjaeger]

Having read the blog post, I have to question the accuracy/validity of it...

While Japan could undoubtedly draw upon some of the design experience of the US and has a strong technical base, I question just how much actual LO/VLO design information that would be available to Japan. At present, the F-22 has been in design since roughly 1986, and I doubt since it is not available for sale, that much of the development work which went into it, would be given/sold to other countries. Particularly since a major reason the F-22 is not available for sale is to keep that technology in US hands. It then follows that since Japan was until just recently interested in acquiring the F-22 (and informed it was not available) it becomes questionable on how long this project has been running (if it actually exists).

Going further with that, if Japan is developing an indigenous 'Stealth' LO/VLO aircraft, presumably that any technology developed Japan would like to keep restricted. As such, why would even a mock-up (which could reveal layout and external LO features) be sent to France for testing? Such a potentially sensitive project could be compromised early on by not maintain strict control over who has access to testing and performance data.

Lastly, looking at pictures of what appears to be the mock-up from overhead, it appears some of the forward aspect shaping done in a similar manner to that the of F-22/F-35, but the rear aspect is not. If the ATD-X is supposed to represent a post-Raptor design, such an apparent oversight in the mock-up would then call into question what, if anything, Japan is supposed to have learned from the Raptor, JSF, LockMart, etc.

-Cheers

 

[Amarion]

Hmm

I like the design. And I agree with you ice, because it does happen to look like one of our fighters

 

[swerve]

Having read the blog post, I have to question the accuracy/validity of it......

-Cheers

This has been discussed before. The pictures & text were originally posted on the website of the Technical Research & Development Institute of the Japanese Defence Agency (now Ministry). I verified this myself at the time, by visiting the site.

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/index.html

I can't find the whole thing there now, but one of the pictures is on page 18 of this official document -

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/misc/publication/mlterm/summary.pdf

And on page 23, under "Future Weapon System Technologies" it says "Aircraft technology (fighters) Stealthy and agile configuration ... " - in a 5-15 year timescale.

It's also here - http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/en/programs/air/air.html - , labelled "Full scale RCS test model", and "We research on a technology for the flight control system that integrates engine thrust vectoring and flight control, and a technology for the optimized aerodynamics shape to enable both stealth and high-maneuver capabilities."

In other words, it's absolutely 100% official & public. It isn't something some blogger invented.

 

[eaf-f16]

Is this Japan's back-up plan in case it can't find a 5th gen air superiority fighter good enough to meet it's requirements?

I think it might be in response to China's 5th gen fighter program. I think this might be if the Chinese fighter comes out better than the F-35 in the air-air aspect.

 

[swerve]

Is this Japan's back-up plan in case it can't find a 5th gen air superiority fighter good enough to meet it's requirements?

I think it might be in response to China's 5th gen fighter program. I think this might be if the Chinese fighter comes out better than the F-35 in the air-air aspect.

The UK used its REPLICA stealthy design, which got about as far as the Japanese design has so far, to persuade the USA to let us in on the F-35 as the only Tier 1 partner. I think this could be Japans REPLICA, but in this case aimed at F-22: a tool to persuade the USA to sell F-22, & a back-up in case that fails.

 

[icekid]

And what on Earth gave you that idea?

Well F-22 has 2d thrust vectoring and ATD-x had 3d thrust vectoring. And ATD-x is a bit smaller and lighter than F-22 this mean it's more maneuverable.

Well I don't know about weapons systems and all though not much information i s out.

 

[onslaught]

As of now it won't be "better" than the F-22 because it's merely a technology demonstrator. That's what ATD stands for, Advanced Technology Demonstrator. So unless the Japanese start putting hardpoints or a gatling gun on this thing, you're kinda comparing apples and oranges.

 

[phreeky]

Discussing the merits of an aircraft at this stage seems just crazy to me, what's the point?

However the concept of Japen developing its own aircraft, with capabilities similar to an F-22, is certainly an interesting one. And any doubts based on Japan not being capable just sounds ignorant to me, their technical capabilities have been proven in so many industries. That's not to say they'd get their instantly - it takes time to build up knowledge, do tests, gain experience, and so on in basically any industry, especially such a complex one - but hey, if their plane is to an F-22 what a Japanese car is to an American car, it can't be a bad thing

The text mentions some ground tests in France, and I'd like to know whether Japan simply does not have the local facilities, whether that be ground, runways or airspace, to do such tests on Japanese soil?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The UK used its REPLICA stealthy design, which got about as far as the Japanese design has so far, to persuade the USA to let us in on the F-35 as the only Tier 1 partner. I think this could be Japans REPLICA, but in this case aimed at F-22: a tool to persuade the USA to sell F-22, & a back-up in case that fails.

You and Tod have hit the nail on the head there mate. An RCS testing mock up is a long, long, long way from an operational platform. The cost and time needed to get a truely indigenous "LO" (i'm scheptical of exactly how stealthy the platform would be) would be counter productive considering you can buy US LO "off the shelf" in the F35. Its clearly geared towards the export of the F-22A and probably that alone.

 

[Incognito129]

I find this test a joke. They first annouced it less than a year ago and all of a sudden they have a prototype of comparable to the f-22's? F-22 took almost 25 years to develop. R&D costs are over $35 billion dollars for this plane. They apparently have more efficient processes than us??

PLEASE CUT THE SHIT. The thing hasn't even broken the $1 billion mark.

If Japan already had the tech for this kind of plane we probably would of sold it. So this garbage about Japan building a plane that can compete is just utter non-sense.

Oh and icekid are you Japanese?

 

[phreeky]

PLEASE CUT THE SHIT. The thing hasn't even broken the $1 billion mark.

Calm down

If Japan already had the tech for this kind of plane we probably would of sold it. So this garbage about Japan building a plane that can compete is just utter non-sense.

I don't think anyone claims they have the tech.........but they can develop the tech over time. Why couldn't they? Are American engineers superior?

But I agree that it would take quite a substantial time and money investment (that's a bit obvious isn't it?).

 

[Incognito129]

Talk means nothing.

Is it possible?
Could it be done?

Feel free to do it and let us know.

And to answer your other question, no Japanese engineers are not superior to American engineering sorry.

We've been spoon feeding tech to you for the past 100 years.

 

[lobbie111]

Looks like an F-15 crossed with an F-22, I am interested to see the avionics that they put into it knowing Japan I bet it will be like going for a ride on a spaceship.

 

[icekid]

Oh and icekid are you Japanese?

No. I am a Indian. Well I agree with you guys that it's just a tech demonstrator but still.

 

[Falstaff]

Oh come on, every nation with any kind of developed aerospace industry works on LO/VLO-concepts, including all the big Western European nations. So this is not a surprise at all. I would have been very surprised if Japan didn't have anything like this program. No big deal really.
I find it quite astonishing however some guys try to compare this kind of technology demonstrator or concept piece with in-service aircraft. That's apples and oranges really. So cool down.

 

[swerve]

...

The text mentions some ground tests in France, and I'd like to know whether Japan simply does not have the local facilities, whether that be ground, runways or airspace, to do such tests on Japanese soil?

The tests were RADAR tests, to check the radar cross-section so it can be compared with predicted values. France has a facility for that sort of test, big enough for this object. They're conducted indoors, in a large building.

The pictures are of an RCS demonstrator, and clearly labelled as such - an object to test RCS. Development of a flying technology demonstrator was only approved recently, after the RCS testing. Presumably the results were satisfactory. It won't fly for a couple of years at least, & even then, it'll only be a technology testbed & development tool.

 

[swerve]

Well F-22 has 2d thrust vectoring and ATD-x had 3d thrust vectoring. And ATD-x is a bit smaller and lighter than F-22 this mean it's more maneuverable.

Well I don't know about weapons systems and all though not much information i s out.

All the information necessary is out. It has NO weapons systems. It hasn't flown, won't for a few years, & when it does it may not look the same as the RCS testbed. Money for development of a flying technology demonstrator (NOT a combat aircraft) was only approved last year: about $500 mn. That will not fund a combat aircraft, but a bare-bones testbed, & even so, I would expect much of the technology in it to be funded separately.

Falstaff is right in everything he says in post no. 18. Nothing surprising, nothing to get excited about. Interesting, & I'll look out for more news on it, but not a big deal.