Strait of Hormuz

[Manfred2]

Admin: eaf-f16 Quoted Text deleted.

THat's not very fair, especaily not to a newer member.
We don't exactly have an over-abundance of active posters here...

Using the military to keep the population cowed is standard practice in the bloody Third World. Most rulers there hate and fear one thing above all others; their own people.

Now, Hormuz might be heating up again. Might, because the Iranian side of the recent inncident seems to have been handled in such a clumsey way that some land-lubber, possibly an Imam that got hit with too much sun, was running the whole operation.

I mean, really! Dumping little white boxes in front of a warship, trying to make us think they were mines?
Give me a break!

 

[eaf-f16]

Admin eaf-f16 quoted Text deleted.

THat's not very fair, especaily not to a newer member.
We don't exactly have an over-abundance of active posters here...

Using the military to keep the population cowed is standard practice in the bloody Third World. Most rulers there hate and fear one thing above all others; their own people.

Now, Hormuz might be heating up again. Might, because the Iranian side of the recent inncident seems to have been handled in such a clumsey way that some land-lubber, possibly an Imam that got hit with too much sun, was running the whole operation.

I mean, really! Dumping little white boxes in front of a warship, trying to make us think they were mines?
Give me a break!

The USN ships actually fell for it and thought they were mines. That's why they did evasive maneuvers.

Admin: Text deleted. You'be been on here long enough to know the rules about dragging politics into threads - esp when they have no relevance to the subject matter.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I mean, really! Dumping little white boxes in front of a warship, trying to make us think they were mines?
Give me a break!

It might be worth your while to have a look at Galrahns blog site for some of the opinions provided by Naval professionals.

At the range that they were allowed to close, that left the USN commander with a 12sec OODA loop.

I am not second guessing any CO out there, as it is hard to make the right call. That being said, in an email exchange with MTH, I did a little play math. For those who don't spend much time on the water on anything larger than a Ranger, 200 yards is CLOSE.

200 yds is very close. If he can get 30kt closure, that is what, about 12 seconds until contact? 12 seconds on a bad day can get ugly. 2 to make the call. 2 to say "oh shi'ite!" 2 to get the command out of your mouth. 4 seconds for it to get passed to and processed by the man pulling the trigger. 2 seconds to make contact on the boat (I am being optimistic as this is all visual aiming at this point and is 50 cal.). That is, well, 12 seconds. Boom.
​

IMO, those Iranian boats were lucky that the USN was not trigger sensitive. I'd be betting that a Chinese or Russian commander under similar circumstances would be falling back on self protection decisions a whole lot sooner before the 200 yard threshold was reached.

Under normal circumstances, any boat that is a latent threat and closes within RPG launch distance is about to forfeit its future. I'm aware of conditions where a 500 yard perimeter would be the response failsafe arc.

 

[Wooki]

avoiding boxes and things

OK, I'm not up-to-date on world events as I have been in my little hole, but regarding boxes being dropped in front of a boat. Its standard practice to maneuver to avoid any obstacle in front of you. Its easy to do, doesn't up set anyone and lets you get a closer look at what the obstacle is. i.e. No Drama.

Taking evasive maneuvers just gives you more time and time is key to maneuver and making decisions at sea.

cheers

w

 

[gf0012-aust]

OK, I'm not up-to-date on world events as I have been in my little hole, but regarding boxes being dropped in front of a boat. Its standard practice to maneuver to avoid any obstacle in front of you. Its easy to do, doesn't up set anyone and lets you get a closer look at what the obstacle is. i.e. No Drama.

Taking evasive maneuvers just gives you more time and time is key to maneuver and making decisions at sea.

cheers

w

The USN comprehensively revised SOPs for traversing contested waterways after USS Cole. There are proscribed ranges where ships will respond once those layers are breached. This was a legacy of the post event Hearings.

What would be interesting is whether they had any organic air in place at the time.

 

[Wooki]

The USN comprehensively revised SOPs for traversing contested waterways after USS Cole. There are proscribed ranges where ships will respond once those layers are breached. This was a legacy of the post event Hearings.

What would be interesting is whether they had any organic air in place at the time.

again with the previous disclaimer:I would surmize that the Officer on watch kept the "boxes" at a CPA of 0.1 NM, which is perfectly acceptable given the circumstances. Its also his or her call whether they want to execute a zone of control.

The whole episode actually tells the USN more about the Iranian boats then the other way around. Number of men in the boat, dimension and weight of the boxes, time to "launch" them, etc.

Still, its a useful tactic if you want the USN boat to steer into an area with real mines. In other words the fast boats are not the threat. It sounds alot like a trick that the Turks did to the British in WW1 and led to the Gallipoli campaign.

cheers

w

 

[gf0012-aust]

What would be interesting is whether they had any organic air in place at the time.

Re above. They did have air up at the time.

 

[Waylander]

What about a nice low and fast bypass of some Hornets?

No hostile action and IMHO in the same league as dropping white boxes into the water and sending some dubious radio messages.

Much better than actually firing a hot shot and slightly better than letting them get away with it unharmed.

 

[Manfred2]

The USN ships actually fell for it and thought they were mines. That's why they did evasive maneuvers.

Admin: Off topic detail deleted.

Democraticly elected? Yeah, after the Imams made it illegal for the front-runner to run against him!

Admin: Text deleted after initiating post corrected.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The USN ships actually fell for it and thought they were mines. That's why they did evasive maneuvers.

actually that's standard practice. you could also refer to incidents in the cold war where both the americans and the russians use to disrupt each other by dropping presents in the water.....

you do understand that the ROE's for dealing with this kind of behaviour were rewritten after the Cole incident?

Nobody fell for anything. When unsure about how militaries work it's best not to make assumptions.

A reminder to all. There are rules about including politics into these discussions - ie we don't allow it. Its even more relevant when the political injections are completely irrelevant to the debate.

 

[McTaff]

actually that's standard practice. you could also refer to incidents in the cold war where both the americans and the russians use to disrupt each other by dropping presents in the water.....

you do understand that the ROE's for dealing with this kind of behaviour were rewritten after the Cole incident?

Nobody fell for anything. When unsure about how militaries work it's best not to make assumptions.

Correct - as I posted in the thread specifically about this incident in the Navy forum:

Any ship needs to avoid any collision with an underwater object, inert objects can cause immense damage to hulls, sonar equipment, countermeasures, props and rudders. Explosive or not...(snip)

You never EVER run into anything in the water you are not sure about. It could contain anything from steel cabling to explosives to reactive agents. Contact with anything like that (or countless other things in the water) is dangerous and to be avoided. Sure, if they were really serious about getting them to run into something sinister they'd use camouflage and they'd deploy them a little more covertly. They were white because they wanted them to be seen, regardless of the contents.

 

[Galrahn]

We are learning more and more details everyday, today we are hearing about previous incidents that were unreported.

I small a Fox.

 

[eaf-f16]

actually that's standard practice. you could also refer to incidents in the cold war where both the americans and the russians use to disrupt each other by dropping presents in the water.....

you do understand that the ROE's for dealing with this kind of behaviour were rewritten after the Cole incident?

Nobody fell for anything. When unsure about how militaries work it's best not to make assumptions.

A reminder to all. There are rules about including politics into these discussions - ie we don't allow it. Its even more relevant when the political injections are completely irrelevant to the debate.

I realize that when hostile forces drop strange boxes in the water telling you you're going to explode you try not to hit the strange boxes they dropped in the water. This what the USN did and it would have been stupid if they didn't.

It's just that Manfred2 was posting as if the US could have never fell for such an "Iranian trick" and that Iran is stupid to try such a thing. I was simply pointing out that it was enough to make the USN ships take evasive maneuvers.

I wasn't making "assumptions" or trying to make it out as if the USN was stupid becuase they took evasive maneuvers to avoid the boxes.

 

[eaf-f16]

What about a nice low and fast bypass of some Hornets?

No hostile action and IMHO in the same league as dropping white boxes into the water and sending some dubious radio messages.

Much better than actually firing a hot shot and slightly better than letting them get away with it unharmed.

I remember seeing a link posted by someone on here about Saudi Arabian F-15's buzzing Iranian ships before and making them turn back. Just keep in mind that if the planes are low enough the Iranians will just point up and start shooting with heavy machine guns and MANPAD's. It wouldn't be the first time that low-flying aircraft were lost to small arms. Not worth losing a Hornet over, IMO. And I don't think it would have made much difference in terms of PR just buzzing them.

 

[Waylander]

Oh common, jets of all kinds (including B-1Bs) are doing show of force mission on a daily base in Iraq and A-stan.
And there then potential threat by small arms is much bigger.

As if these boat cres could get their weapons ready fast enough to fire at some Hornets coming in low and fast.
Not to talk of them being dead within minutes if they would actually fire onto US planes.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I realize that when hostile forces drop strange boxes in the water telling you you're going to explode you try not to hit the strange boxes they dropped in the water. This what the USN did and it would have been stupid if they didn't.

It's just that Manfred2 was posting as if the US could have never fell for such an "Iranian trick" and that Iran is stupid to try such a thing. I was simply pointing out that it was enough to make the USN ships take evasive maneuvers.

I wasn't making "assumptions" or trying to make it out as if the USN was stupid becuase they took evasive maneuvers to avoid the boxes.

I guess my curiosity is that there appeared to be an implication that planting was successful because it disrupted the orderly path of those elements. In actual fact, how they responded to the bait was standard evasive procedure. The tertiary stage was not acted on, and for that those trailer sailors should be eternally greatful (although I suspect that they are quite clueless as to how close they came to being an organic collander)

In light of the closing range, they're damn lucky that the USN sailors were disciplined and not full of "trigger fever".

I can think of a few other navies where such a "courtesy" would not have been extended....

 

[merocaine]

O dear

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2240533,00.html

 

[McTaff]

Oh common, jets of all kinds (including B-1Bs) are doing show of force mission on a daily base in Iraq and A-stan.
And there then potential threat by small arms is much bigger.

As if these boat cres could get their weapons ready fast enough to fire at some Hornets coming in low and fast.
Not to talk of them being dead within minutes if they would actually fire onto US planes.

Need to locate the same boats for a start, and perform that tasking in international waters. High speed low overflight in Iranian airspace for "poops and giggles" is a great way to have enemy-flavoured SAM for a second breakfast.

Even if you located and isolated a couple of patrolies out of Iranian waters and deck-busted them at Mach 1.4, they'll probably stare skyward, say "Whoa, cool - wish I'd bought my Pentax out!" and then carry on about their business. At sea, 'show of force' just doesn't carry that same level of impact - mainly because over land they aren't sure if you're there to drop ordnance overhead or not. At sea you'd be very dead before you even knew the pointy planes were out there, and they know it.

 

[Waylander]

But shouldn't the shock of the supersonic flyby be a little bit painfull?

For sure one has to locate them but there were air assets in the air during the incident. Shouldn't be that big of a problem to stay in contact if one wants to buzz them as soon as they have a safe distance to the US ships.