J.O.R.N (Jindalee Operational Radar Network) of Australia

[AUSTEO]

it can detect a f117 because it is only stealthy in a headon, sideon profile, the radar waves are coming from an angle.

Not quite.

OTHR uses long wavelengths in the HF (High Frequency) band, with wavelengths of the same order of magnitude as an aircraft. As such, stealth
shaping does nothing in terms of reducing radar reflection at these
frequencies, whereas microwave radar is effectively scattered by that shaping.

The price for this capability is in precision - you can say an aircraft is within a certain box that's ____ hundred metres wide, but that's obviously not good enough for missile guidance.

 

[StingrayOZ]

As I understand it JORN can be pretty confident to detect most things within 3,000 km. In favourable conditions it can reach out greater than 5,000 km. However that coverage is irradic and imprecise.

But it does give you information where to look with other resources. Many of which can see everything, but don't know where to look. I would imagine with a combination of systems, you could provide target information. While not specific for a missile, scrambled aircraft would know where to engage, object speed and heading atleast approximately.

I don't belive anyone has such a all emcompassing system like JORN. The americans have a more powerful but less effective system. But upgrades are taking place. I would imagine they will eventually form some sort of global network.

 

[gf0012-aust]

As I understand it JORN can be pretty confident to detect most things within 3,000 km. In favourable conditions it can reach out greater than 5,000 km. However that coverage is irradic and imprecise.

But it does give you information where to look with other resources. Many of which can see everything, but don't know where to look. I would imagine with a combination of systems, you could provide target information. While not specific for a missile, scrambled aircraft would know where to engage, object speed and heading atleast approximately.

I don't belive anyone has such a all emcompassing system like JORN. The americans have a more powerful but less effective system. But upgrades are taking place. I would imagine they will eventually form some sort of global network.

The issue is the distinction between detection and targetting. The US interest is to make JORN a companion system to existing detection and targetting capabilities. JORN by definition is not a targetting system.

I wouldn't argue that the US doesn't have similar capability (and by distinction I'm referring to task not capability). JORN us unique due to our requirements. OTHR capability exists with the US, France and Russia.

 

[Wooki]

i believe we recieved the idea from the states and improved the technology on basis provided by our think tanks...

I would dispute that. There may have been research in other countries during the 50's and 60's, but the JORN program is the result of a truly indigenous effort. I was vaguely surprised that Telstra couldn't keep it together, but I guess they lost some of the talent.

One of the first concepts to look closely at "JORN" like tech, was a proof of concept over the horizon Microwave link between NSW and Qld that had about a 400km range. Yes microwave, not HF. If you can use the ionosphere to manage microwaves, then it is relatively easy to adjust it for HF. In fact, as "easy as pie".

That is to say, there is a lot more depth behind JORN then people are aware of and a whole "swag" of very interesting spinoffs have cropped up as a result.

The USA has existing assets that could be modified to provide it with a global early warning detection system, far exceeding what JORN can do to date, but I am not sure as to whether the powers that be realize what they have or whether it is natural market forces that are preventing its implementation.

I suspect it is largely due to the latter.

Cheers

w

 

[StingrayOZ]

I would imagine the americans know what they are doing. They are only half as stupid as they make themselves out to be.

While they may be trying to apply part of the technology to targeting I would imagine its augmented by other targeting specific techniques.

Who knows what massive global plan the americans are working on. Given how far Australia was able to bring their own OTHR, the americans adopting Australian advances and throwing huge money and resources could do even more.

 

[AGRA]

Its called SBIRS... Space Based Infra Red System. It will provide both launch alert and tracking of ballistic missiles (the current DSP satellites only provide launch alert). However SBIRS will also provide 'other' battlefield intelligence... Which means tracking infra red signatures from planes, vehicles and ships.

 

[Wooki]

Its called SBIRS... Space Based Infra Red System. It will provide both launch alert and tracking of ballistic missiles (the current DSP satellites only provide launch alert). However SBIRS will also provide 'other' battlefield intelligence... Which means tracking infra red signatures from planes, vehicles and ships.

Yes That is one asset.

I would imagine the americans know what they are doing. They are only half as stupid as they make themselves out to be.

I find comments like the above offensive and they detract from the board as a whole. People (presumably yourself) who focus on one individual as a representative of the whole are small minded and lack imagination. I suspect that you would consider George Bush (with whom I am sure you are basing your laser like insight upon) the greatest man on Earth, if he chose to spend 5 minutes one on one with you.

w

 

[StingrayOZ]

I didn't mean to offend.

My comment was actually saying "Americans are very smart operators, despite many people claiming the opposite. They are so far ahead on this sort of stuff that they make everyone look like 1st graders playing with duplo."

My half as stupid was actually a play on the standard comment of "your only half as smart as you make yourself out to be". While many people may think that americans are deficent in smarts, all I have ever seen of the technical side, is that the US is extremely capable and have almost all the answers on stuff everyone else is just dreaming about.

Criticising the usa is like critising god. They are trying to do so much, any outcome that is not perfect is deemed terrible evil.

The things I say I say from a country which is a very, very staunch supporter of the USA.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22523510-953,00.html

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/06/27/poll-support-for-iraq-war-reaches-new-low/

Infact Australia supports the Iraq war more than American's do. 92% of Australians think Australia and the US should have a very close defence relationship even after the Iraq war rift (rift being ~40+% of Australians supporting it). I would also point out Australia's long term commitment to previous US action in Korea, Veitnam, GWI, etc etc etc...

While I may disagree with some decisions, I try and do so in a positive manner. Knowing we will all be working together next time.

 

[Wooki]

I didn't mean to offend.

My comment was actually saying "Americans are very smart operators, despite many people claiming the opposite. They are so far ahead on this sort of stuff that they make everyone look like 1st graders playing with duplo."

My half as stupid was actually a play on the standard comment of "your only half as smart as you make yourself out to be". While many people may think that americans are deficent in smarts, all I have ever seen of the technical side, is that the US is extremely capable and have almost all the answers on stuff everyone else is just dreaming about.

Criticising the usa is like critising god. They are trying to do so much, any outcome that is not perfect is deemed terrible evil.

The things I say I say from a country which is a very, very staunch supporter of the USA.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22523510-953,00.html

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/06/27/poll-support-for-iraq-war-reaches-new-low/

Infact Australia supports the Iraq war more than American's do. 92% of Australians think Australia and the US should have a very close defence relationship even after the Iraq war rift (rift being ~40+% of Australians supporting it). I would also point out Australia's long term commitment to previous US action in Korea, Veitnam, GWI, etc etc etc...

While I may disagree with some decisions, I try and do so in a positive manner. Knowing we will all be working together next time.

Oh, no problem. I guess I am a bit tired of the election schpeel already and misconstrued your writing. I apologize in turn for jumping the gun.

cheers

w

 

[barra]

JORN was an Australian initiative with original contract going to Telstra who built the original ground stations. The Americans only got interested in its capabilities when we asked to confirm aircraft movements around Guam to gauge JORN's accuracy with time and position.

Hooroo

 

[Awang se]

not really good for missile targeting maybe, but good enough to provide early warning and to significantly narrow down search envelope for more accurate sensors. to detect a strike 3000km away is already a significant achievement. it provide plenty of time for the defence preparation and to concentrate maximum firepower in a direction the attack will come.

i wonder, maybe the arrays can be mounted on a mobile platform. or is it too big?

 

[gf0012-aust]

not really good for missile targeting maybe

hence US interest in being able to merge the capability into their existing sensor capability

i wonder, maybe the arrays can be mounted on a mobile platform. or is it too big?

too big.....

 

[Tasman]

i wonder, maybe the arrays can be mounted on a mobile platform. or is it too big?

It covers much to great an area to be developed as a mobile system. Also the transmitter site and its receiver site are separated by a large distance to prevent the transmitter from interfering with the receiver.

http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/organisation/info_on/units/1_rsu/index.htm

Tas

 

[Awang se]

i mean an individual transmitter/receptor in the array. maybe we can rotate it's location in one general area. a few kilometres relocation won't affect greatly on such a system, i think.

I first heard about the system when i was still 16 years old, and that's 11 years ago.

 

[gf0012-aust]

i mean an individual transmitter/receptor in the array. maybe we can rotate it's location in one general area. a few kilometres relocation won't affect greatly on such a system, i think.

I first heard about the system when i was still 16 years old, and that's 11 years ago.

Unofficially there are claims that the system was able to detect scud launches in the ME and to actually see into the PACRIM as well.

If thats the case, then it already has demonstrated a degree of omnidirectional capability.

 

[Awang se]

what i meant is for the survivability. stationary target is a sitting duck. if we can rotate the individual antenna into several alternate location, it may improved the survivability.

anyway, if several antenna in the array are knock out, can JORN still be operational?

 

[gf0012-aust]

what i meant is for the survivability. stationary target is a sitting duck. if we can rotate the individual antenna into several alternate location, it may improved the survivability.

anyway, if several antenna in the array are knock out, can JORN still be operational?

In real terms, the only weapon that could make a catastrophic statement on JORN would be a ballistic response - and that would narrow it down to a few players.

Cruise missiles would have to be basically coming in under MRBM range definitions to reach out and touch the system - again that is a capability that in current terms is only available to the Russians. China certainly doesn't have that depth of response capability in cruise missile tech.

It would take quite a bit to stuff up the arrays - and then you'd also have to kill the control stations - and a few other bits and pieces which aren't in the brochures.

All theoretical of course. ......

Let me reiterate the tried and true expression that you can go and kill anything if you have the technical means and political will and intent to do so - but to reach out and touch JORN narrows down the hostiles list somewhat considerably....

 

[StingrayOZ]

And JORN has redudancy. How big are the arrays? Kms? Long and narrow. In several locations. You can't fire a single missile and pull the plug on it.

It would be a huge long range strike even starting from costal Australia. Not to mention perhaps more critical US installations on the way there. Given the US is linking into it, they would take it very personally.

 

[VGNTMH]

I realize that the range of JORN can very with ionospheric conditions.

But one thing I have always wondered is, are there any times when JORN cannot operate at all due to unsuitable ionospheric conditions?

That is can it operate at all times, with the range varying from say 2000km to much longer, or can it only operate say 75% of the time and the other 25%of the time it is ineffective?

In any case it is a very respectable technological achievement by Australia (CSIRO?) and surely of great utility to the ADF and JOPC.

It gives you an omniscient feeling!

 

[Wooki]

In real terms, the only weapon that could make a catastrophic statement on JORN would be a ballistic response - and that would narrow it down to a few players.

Cruise missiles would have to be basically coming in under MRBM range definitions to reach out and touch the system - again that is a capability that in current terms is only available to the Russians. China certainly doesn't have that depth of response capability in cruise missile tech.

It would take quite a bit to stuff up the arrays - and then you'd also have to kill the control stations - and a few other bits and pieces which aren't in the brochures.

All theoretical of course. ......

Let me reiterate the tried and true expression that you can go and kill anything if you have the technical means and political will and intent to do so - but to reach out and touch JORN narrows down the hostiles list somewhat considerably....

And JORN has redudancy. How big are the arrays? Kms? Long and narrow. In several locations. You can't fire a single missile and pull the plug on it.

It would be a huge long range strike even starting from costal Australia. Not to mention perhaps more critical US installations on the way there. Given the US is linking into it, they would take it very personally.

Ummm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. All existing (published) radar technologies rely upon electro-magnetic energy and a media converting electricity into that EM energy. So you only have to shut that process down to achieve a kill.

It is actually quite easy to disable that process in a static array. E.g. A Cessna 172 could do it.

cheers

w