Rafale loses out again?

[harryriedl]

Yes, becuase, unlike "insignificant" markets like Saudi Arabia and Libya, Morocco is "awash" with money from oil exports, right?

nfloorl:

naa its because Morocco is the French backyard and if they can't foist the Raf on to them who else would use it. Its been considered since independence to buy the big ticket items from France

 

[contedicavour]

naa its because Morocco is the French backyard and if they can't foist the Raf on to them who else would use it. Its been considered since independence to buy the big ticket items from France

Indeed. By the way, Morocco had to make up for this slap on France by ordering relatively strange items for its country : TGV high speed trains (really needed in Africa ?? no other development priorities before ??) and even a FREMM 5700 tonne multipurpose frigate (almost a destroyer actually) to replace a 1500 tonne Descubierta corvette (on which the MM38 Exocet are not even carried anymore).

cheers

 

[kato]

TGV high speed trains (really needed in Africa ?? no other development priorities before ??)

Going straight offtopic, they're doing that really extremely on the cheap deal there though.
Around 2 billion euro for an initial 500 km high-speed link? That's only 4 million per km. The 100-km TGV link through the Netherlands was ten times that.

A high-speed railway link for Morocco was on the table before Sarkozy's Morocco trip btw already. They just finally decided on Alstom as a provider of the trains on the link due to the pressure.

Note that the link - with its end in Tangiers - will hook Morocco up directly to the European Union - if and when the Gibraltar Tunnel is built (for which the preliminary studies will be out next year or so). It wouldn't make much sense at that point - around 2025 to 2030 - to pretty much end the high-speed network just behind the tunnel (remember the UK? *cough*); hence ONCF currently attempting to establish a high-speed link network through Morocco to be finished around the same time.

 

[swerve]

Going straight offtopic, they're doing that really extremely on the cheap deal there though.
Around 2 billion euro for an initial 500 km high-speed link? That's only 4 million per km. The 100-km TGV link through the Netherlands was ten times that....

Land & labour costs will make a big difference - a very big difference - but that still seems pretty cheap.

 

[kato]

Land & labour costs will make a big difference - a very big difference - but that still seems pretty cheap.

Indeed, in particular if you consider that Morocco is rather mountaineous (read: potentially costly tunnels), and only desert in the South. Unless the link manages to "hug the coast" and go around the mountains. In comparison to the Netherlands there's of course the far more rivers and canals (bridges) in the Netherlands to consider costwise.

It might be that i'm a bit misreading the contracts, and the actual cost is 2 billion for construction by ONCF, and 2 billion for Alstom for trains and planning. Might get pretty realistic at that point.

 

[swerve]

Indeed, in particular if you consider that Morocco is rather mountaineous (read: potentially costly tunnels), and only desert in the South. Unless the link manages to "hug the coast" and go around the mountains. In comparison to the Netherlands there's of course the far more rivers and canals (bridges) in the Netherlands to consider costwise.

It might be that i'm a bit misreading the contracts, and the actual cost is 2 billion for construction by ONCF, and 2 billion for Alstom for trains and planning. Might get pretty realistic at that point.

The route is Tangier-Rabat-Casablanca. Along the coastal plain, which is quite wide. The mountains are well inland along most of the route. Pretty flat, firm ground. Where most of the population, & even more of the agriculture & industry, are to be found.

I would expect a branch to Fez & an extension to Marrakesh to follow eventually.

See existing rail network here - http://www.euromedtransport.org/108.0.html?&L=1

 

[kato]

I would expect a branch to Fez & an extension to Marrakesh to follow eventually.

http://www.bladi.net/13264-tgv-maroc.html

Eventually supposed to be 1500 km.

The link to Casablanca is supposed to be extended to Agadir along the coast (via Essaioura) with a branch from Casablanca to Marrakesh. On the other side, to the east from Tangiers it's supposed to go to Oujda on the Algerian border (with a proposed extension "Maghreb line" to Tunis via Algiers).

 

[swerve]

http://www.bladi.net/13264-tgv-maroc.html

Eventually supposed to be 1500 km.

The link to Casablanca is supposed to be extended to Agadir along the coast (via Essaioura) with a branch from Casablanca to Marrakesh. On the other side, to the east from Tangiers it's supposed to go to Oujda on the Algerian border (with a proposed extension "Maghreb line" to Tunis via Algiers).

In effect, replacing the current inter-city links with a TGV network. Presumably the old lines would remain in place, relegated to local services. That article you link to says that some of the existing lines are reaching capacity, & it's not a question of TGV or nothing, but TGV vs adding extra tracks to the existing lines.

An interesting matter, but I'm afraid we're awfully far off topic. Probably best to stop this discussion, or carry it on in private.

 

[harryriedl]

Going straight offtopic, they're doing that really extremely on the cheap deal there though.
Around 2 billion euro for an initial 500 km high-speed link? That's only 4 million per km. The 100-km TGV link through the Netherlands was ten times that.

A high-speed railway link for Morocco was on the table before Sarkozy's Morocco trip btw already. They just finally decided on Alstom as a provider of the trains on the link due to the pressure.

Note that the link - with its end in Tangiers - will hook Morocco up directly to the European Union - if and when the Gibraltar Tunnel is built (for which the preliminary studies will be out next year or so). It wouldn't make much sense at that point - around 2025 to 2030 - to pretty much end the high-speed network just behind the tunnel (remember the UK? *cough*); hence ONCF currently attempting to establish a high-speed link network through Morocco to be finished around the same time.

sorry to contiune off topic.
in regards to the Gib tunnel if dose happen how would tunnel suricitey be delt with [im thinking of Sangat camp within a mile of the Channel Tunnel] and all the problems assotated with the tunnel sucritiy

 

[Mr Ignorant]

The Moroccans were always partial to the French Market, as are the Singaporeans, Malaysians and the rest to British Markets. There's nothing wrong with high speed TGV trains and railways for Morocco, that's a least a step up compared to Malaysia and Singapore. The historical ties to Europe in the Mediterranean stretch way back to the Peloponnesian wars. The Moroccans know what they're doing.

The only trouble Morocco has is with the southern "provinces" of the Sahara. The old Polisario backed up to the hilt by Algeria, are a lethal fighting force. The Moroccans are having too much trouble holding on to the ex Spanish Sahara, and as far as they're concerned, Algeria is a nuisance. So plump for the Americans and get some F16 hardware. Real Hollywood stuff.

As for Dassault, what happened????? The Mirage IIIs were the best, and so were the Mirage 2000s, but the Rafale???

It is a serious Interceptor aircraft despite the lack of AESA, but Thales is a French consortium (sort of) and putting a new AESA developed radar in 2012 or earlier, shouldn't be a problem at all.

Still, we look at the Rafale and we think, "What a fine bit of gear". Prospective Middle Eastern Regimes and tyrannies should really check the plane out hehehe