SA submarine outwits NATO

contedicavour

New Member
Well nothing special; only Argentinian naval asset in Falklands area, playing cat and mouse wit RN ASW assets, managed to fire torpedo's at few occasions(no hits thank only to malfunctioned weapons system) and safely returning to base.
All that at the time when RN primary function was ASW...


:)
Amazing how many weapons malfunctioned : from the A4s' bombs to the Type209 torpedoes ... while I am happy with the outcome I'm wondering if some weapons deliveries were actually deliberately sub-standard...

Back to topic, what ASW screen was there exactly to stop the SA SSK in the exercise ? If indeed there was only a Danish light FFG then heck it's not fair ;)

cheers
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Back to topic, what ASW screen was there exactly to stop the SA SSK in the exercise ? If indeed there was only a Danish light FFG then heck it's not fair ;)
The NATO part of the exercise was apparently SNMG1.

USS Normandy (Tico, flagship)
HNLMS Evertsen (LCF class)
HMCS Toronto (Halifax class)
NRP Alvaras Cabral (Vasco da Gama class, Meko-200PN)
HDMS Olfert Fischer (Niels Juel class)
FGS Spessart (Rhön class, AO)

The Danish and the Portuguese ship apparently provided the ASW screen, along with Alvaras Cabral's Lynx.

See also here.
 

spsun100001

New Member
At face value it does seem an impressive performance. I wonder if ASW skills in western navies have deteriorated since the end of the cold war and the change in focus from the primary threat being the Soviet sub-surface fleet?

Certainly there are far fewer western assets with towed arrays these days, lots of navies are putting less emphasis on ASW platforms (take the USN's withdrawal of the Spruance destroyers and S3 ASW aircraft, the RN's reduction of Nimrod ASW aircraft from 22 to 12 etc.) and I wonder if that reflects a general reduction in not only the ASW capability of the fleets but how much time they spend practising this most difficult of tasks?

If it does then that has to be of concern given the proliferation of capable SS vessels into many navies.

Steve
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Idly wondering if SNMG2 would have fared better.

The mediterranean-based SNMG2 currently consists of:
USS Arleigh Burke (obvious)
HMS Manchester (Type 42)
HS Kanaris (Kortenaer)
SPS Navarra (F80 OHP derivative)
TCG Gökova (G-class OHP)
ITS Espero (Maestrale class).

Bit more ASW-centric/-capable than SNMG1. More helos too (max 3 Seahawks, 4 AB212, 1 Lynx) than SNMG1 (max 3 Lynx, 2 Seahawk, 1 Sea King).
 

contedicavour

New Member
Idly wondering if SNMG2 would have fared better.

The mediterranean-based SNMG2 currently consists of:
USS Arleigh Burke (obvious)
HMS Manchester (Type 42)
HS Kanaris (Kortenaer)
SPS Navarra (F80 OHP derivative)
TCG Gökova (G-class OHP)
ITS Espero (Maestrale class).

Bit more ASW-centric/-capable than SNMG1. More helos too (max 3 Seahawks, 4 AB212, 1 Lynx) than SNMG1 (max 3 Lynx, 2 Seahawk, 1 Sea King).
Well the Maestrales were purpose built for sub hunting with VDS+towed array and even A184 heavy torpedoes (these have been removed) and 2 ASW helos. While they also carry Teseo Mk2 SSMs and Aspide SAMs their focus was ASW.
Besides our FFG, a couple of OHPs would also have provided a first class ASW screen.
With all due respect, IIRC neither the Portuguese nor the Danish ships have VDS and towed array sonars and the Danish ship doesn't have helos.

cheers
 

neil

New Member
This is indeed interesting, however the "exercise" was somehow skewed in favor of the SA Type 209-I seriously doubt that the NATO flotilla actually utilised their full capabilities in the hunt-this sounds wayyy too biased in favor of the ONE 209 and the fact that a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area? If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged and would have no chance to escape about 2-4 LAMPS helos after it (each helo covering 60 degrees), let alone run from a Mk46 AsuW torp once detected(c.40knts)

This is just probably a PR stunt to make that ex-guerilla monkey Lekota feel good about himself
This was defenitely no PR stunt.. do you really think the NATO navies would allow themselves to be humiliated like that in public? I dont think so..

There is a perception out there that South Africa is just another African country.. hopeless in every way.. and if you look at what you see in the South African news these days, in some instances this is true..

But at large the South African military is a proffesional force with good(not excellent, but good) training and they are underestimated by many people..

In excercises during the last couple of years, the Luftwaffe, US Air Force, Belgian Air Component and Indian Air Forces all learned first hand that the South African military is defenitely worth excercising with.. South African fighter jets scored a number of 'kills' against their NATO adversaries.. in fact during the joint naval excercises held with Germany in 2006, the protective combat air patrol set up by south african fighter jets over the 'target fleet', proved to be so good, that the Luftwaffe complained they couldnt get close enough to practice firing their Cormorant Anti Ship missiles!

I am certainly not an advocate of the current South African government and I'm not trying to imply that the SA armed forces are better than they actually are..

All I'm trying to say here, is that there are many highly proffesional people in the SA armed services, just as there unfortunately are many not so proffesional people there also..

The proffesionals should be given the credit they're due.. and not mocked simply because they are from a relatively unknown African country..

Well done Commander Gary Kretschmer!!!
 

submerged

New Member
Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area?
the torpedo launch itself would make so much noise the location of the sub would've been known by the taskforce instantly when utilising passive sonar systems, keeping track of it is difficult if handled by experienced commander tho. Active sonar isn't as effective in the shallows as it is in the blue because of the fragmentation provided by the seabed (not taking in account LFAS systems here)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Amazing how many weapons malfunctioned : from the A4s' bombs to the Type209 torpedoes ... while I am happy with the outcome I'm wondering if some weapons deliveries were actually deliberately sub-standard......
cheers
IIRC they worked out what was wrong with the bombs. They were dropping unretarded bombs, below the safe release altitude because they were flying low to avoid air defences, & the fuse safeties wouldn't let 'em explode. They had to fit improvised retarding devices, & then they started working. But a bit late in the war.

There are rumours of a bit of a cultural problem complicating this, & delaying a solution. Poor communication between posh pilots & humble armourers.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Active sonar isn't as effective in the shallows as it is in the blue because of the fragmentation provided by the seabed (not taking in account LFAS systems here)
It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Impressive performance for the crew of the SSK. Subs are really dangerous when used properly and can have effect disproportionate to their operational footprint. In a real scenario, depending on the combatants, this could alter the course of the war. Makes me think of the effects of RN subs in the Falklands conflict. BAMs and armed UUVs cant get into service fast enough!

-DA

P.S. Does anybody know the rough average operational radius for a typical SSK from its home port while performing Sea Denial operations?
Nope, but your average surface vessel is 6000NM range point (a) to (b) and an SSK doesn't have the endurance of a surface asset, yet.

cheers

w
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
an SSK doesn't have the endurance of a surface asset, yet.
Umm, a lot of SSKs have higher endurance than a most ships.

For modern HDW submarines:
Type 212A - 85 days (21 days on AIP); range surfaced 8,000nm
Type 214 - 50 days; range surfaced 12,000nm
Type 209/1400 - 50 days; range surfaced 10,000nm

Modern surface ships, for comparison:
F124 - 21 days, range 4,000nm
Horizon - 45 days, range 7,000nm
Absolon - 28 days, range 10,000nm

Surface ships, in most navies, have the advantage of operating with support ships to refuel/replenish at sea.
 

submerged

New Member
It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....
yeah, and it also lead to the rise of Low Frequency Active Sonar solutions, wich showed much improved detection rates in shallow water conditions alltho quiet controversial because of it's suspected impact on marine mamals. CBASS is an update to the Mk48 ADCAP sonar suite isn't it?
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Umm, a lot of SSKs have higher endurance than a most ships.

For modern HDW submarines:
Type 212A - 85 days (21 days on AIP); range surfaced 8,000nm
Type 214 - 50 days; range surfaced 12,000nm
Type 209/1400 - 50 days; range surfaced 10,000nm

Modern surface ships, for comparison:
F124 - 21 days, range 4,000nm
Horizon - 45 days, range 7,000nm
Absolon - 28 days, range 10,000nm

Surface ships, in most navies, have the advantage of operating with support ships to refuel/replenish at sea.
LOL Kato. A surfaced submarine ceases to be an asset, so you know what I mean, I think.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
LOL Kato. A surfaced submarine ceases to be an asset, so you know what I mean, I think.
I hope you don't intend your ships to need to be in "active duty state" going across half the planet.
Because, seriously, if you need to do that, you're better off searching diplomatic solutions instead of entering any conflict.

A U212A SSK can go submerged from Germany to the Mediterranean. More than anyone really needs. Once in theater, what counts is the endurance of your units. And without tenders and AORs, subs tend to beat surface units by far in that area - modern SSKs hit between 30 and 45 days independant operation time minimum, while surface ships tend to be laid out for 21-day supply-independant operations maximum.
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I hope you don't intend your ships to need to be in "active duty state" going across half the planet.
Because, seriously, if you need to do that, you're better off searching diplomatic solutions instead of entering any conflict.

A U212A SSK can go submerged from Germany to the Mediterranean. More than anyone really needs. Once in theater, what counts is the endurance of your units. And without tenders and AORs, subs tend to beat surface units by far in that area - modern SSKs hit between 30 and 45 days independant operation time minimum, while surface ships tend to be laid out for 21-day supply-independant operations maximum.
Lets agree to disagree then, shall we?
 

kilo

New Member
This wouldn't have happened if the group had some proper ASW assets and more ASW helicopters. Also just because surface ships are at a disadvantage against submarines in coastal waters doesn't mean they are obsolete it is harder for submarines to find track and target the enemy they usually rely on off board reconnaissance to find the general location of their targets. also even if surface ships die they can still complete their mission. If an escort sacrifices itself to protect it's charge then it has done it's mission. Also surface ships can do jobs that SSK's can't do like escort convoys, carriers, and landing ships.
 

Ths

Banned Member
It does give occation to pause.... (there it was - the pause)

1. Rear Admiral Niels Wang visited Vædderen in South Africa on his way to Australia.
2. I'm a bit surprised about Olfert... It has a constant problem with range and endurance - could be they were interested in the capabilities of the new patrolships....
 

metro

New Member
It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....
Does anyone know what the lower range (frequency) given off by active sonar is...? If it's classified, a general figure is fine. Just my innate curiosity from spending too much time playing with sound/acoustics/harmonics/music/etc.

What's used in subs to ID things? Mostly spectrometers?

Cheers

@Kato: Thanks for the info!
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Does anyone know what the lower range (frequency) given off by active sonar is...?
AN/SQC-53A (mid-frequency):
2,600-3,300 Hz, "centered at 2,900 Hz".
235+ db pressure.
Duration 0.5-2 sec, repetition every 28 sec.

SURTASS LFA (low-frequency):
100-500 Hz.
235 db effective pressure.
Duration 6-100 sec, repetition every 360-900 sec.

Source: http://www.nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sound/sound.pdf (Table 1.1, Ch.1 p.3)
 

neil

New Member
South Africa's third and final Type 209 SAS Queen Modjadji has finally arrived at Simons Town Naval Base. She was escorted home by the SA Navy's Hydrographic Survey Vessel SAS Protea.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and-events/677/arrival-of-third-sa-navy-submarine

Some nice pics too..

Apparently the second sub, SAS Charlotte Maxeke also undertook the first patrol of South Africa's exclusive economic zone(by a sub) in a long time.

Looking at the pictures it is also good to see both boats at sea at the same time. Good in the sense that they had a sufficient amount of crew members to do this.
 
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