Taiwan receiving Patriot-3 upgrade

[Musashi_kenshin]

Proposed missile defense upgrade for Taiwan announced

The Pentagon notified the US Congress Tuesday about a possible sale to Taiwan of an upgrade to its Patriot missile defense systems valued at nearly one billion dollars. Even before the announcement, the proposed sale was attacked by China as sending a "wrong signal" to Taiwan and its independence-minded President Chen Shui-bian.

The Defense Security and Cooperation Agency said the upgrades would involve ground support equipment of three existing fire units so that they can be armed with the most advanced Patriot interceptor missiles. "The proposed sale will help improve the security of the recipient and assist in maintaining political stability, military balance and economic progress in the region," the DSCA said.

The Pentagon estimates that China has nearly 1,000 short range ballistic missiles deployed within striking distance of Taiwan, and is developing other capabilities aimed at preventing outside military intervention in the early days of a cross-straits conflict.

In meetings last week with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Chinese leaders raised their concerns that Chen intends to move Taiwain toward "de jure" independence through a referendum next year on UN membership. Gates assured President Hu Jintao that the United States was "categorically opposed" to a change of status for Taiwan, but also raised US concerns about China's military buildup.

China's foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said in a statement that the latest Patriot upgrade violated a US commitment to reduce weapons transfers to Taiwan, which Beijing regards as a renegade province. "We urge the US side to implement with real actions its solemn commitments on the Taiwan issue... and stop sending wrong signals to Taiwan," he said. He said the Pentagon announcement constituted "rude interference in China's internal affairs." "The Chinese side strongly protests against this and has raised solemn representations with the United States," Liu said. "The Chinese side reserves the right to adopt further measures," he said without elaborating.

China had a similar reaction in September after the Pentagon announced the possible sales to Taiwan of a dozen P-3C Orion anti-submarine patrol aircraft and SM-2 anti-aircraft missiles worth more than 2.2 billion dollars.

The Patriot upgrades will for the first time enable the fire units to launch either Patriot Guidance Enhanced Missiles or Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missiles. The GEM missiles use blast fragmentation warheads to destroy an incoming missile, while the PAC-3 uses a "hit-to-kill" warhead that collides with the target.

The fire units would get new radios, radars, target identification and remote launch systems, and electric power plants, the DSCA said. The proposed upgrade does not include missiles. "The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as 939 million dollars," it said in a statement. The prime contractor will be Raytheon Corporation, of Andover, Massachusetts.

Thoughts (if any)?

 

[EnigmaNZ]

A billion dollars without the missiles, hell thats seems expensive for an upgrade of 3 systems. How many launchers per battery? With 16 Pac-3 missiles per launcher vis a vis 4 currently, it does provide a much greater capacity to counter a swarm attack. But no wonder they baulked at additional systems. What sort of costs are we looking at for a TC-2 AAM battery.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

What sort of costs are we looking at for a TC-2 AAM battery.

TC-2 doesn't have the sort of anti-ballistic missile capabilities PAC-3 does - that's why Taiwan wants the latter.

Besides, it wasn't proportionally much cheaper when the KMT ordered it before 2000. The complaints over "cost" are politics.

 

[merocaine]

Is there a range/ceiling increase with this upgrade with the GEM missiles?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Is there a range/ceiling increase with this upgrade with the GEM missiles?

I have no idea how the performance of GEM missiles would be affected (if at all) by the upgrade.

 

[Grand Danois]

PATRIOT Configuration 2 Ground Systems Upgrade for Taiwan
US Defense Security Cooperation Agency | Nov 15, 2007

WASHINGTON: The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States of PATRIOT Configuration 2 Ground Systems Upgrade as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $939 million.

The Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States has requested a possible sale of upgrade and refurbishment of Taiwan’s 3 existing PATRIOT fire units to the latest Army Configuration 3 ground support equipment.

MDE includes:
-- 36 AN/VRC-88E SINCGARS EXP Vehicle Short Range Radio Systems;
-- 32 AN/VRC-90E SINCGARS EXP Vehicle Long Range Radio Systems;
-- 4 AN/VRC-91E SINCGARS EXP Long Range Radio Systems;
-- 11 AN/VRC-92E SINCGARS EXP Dual Range Radio Systems;
-- 2 PATRIOT, MIM-104 (Patriot-As-A-Target);
-- Radar Enhancement Phase 3 (REP-3);
-- Classification, Discrimination and Identification Phase 3 (CDI-3);
-- Remote Launch Communication Enhancement Upgrade (RLCEU); and
-- an Electric Power Plant.

Non-MDE includes:
all necessary modification kits, communication support equipment, tools and test equipment, integration and checkout, spares and repair parts, installation and training, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance, and other related elements of logistics and program support.

Taiwan has also requested 4 telemetry kits for its live fire training.

The estimated cost is $939 million.

This proposed sale serves U.S. national, economic and security interests by supporting the recipient’s continuing efforts to modernize its armed forces and enhance its defensive capability. The proposed sale will help improve the security of the recipient and assist in maintaining political stability, military balance, and economic progress in the region.

This sale is consistent with United States law and policy as expressed in Public Law 96-8. The U.S. is committed to providing military assistance under the terms of the Taiwan Relations Act.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to the recipient.

The prime contractor will be Raytheon Corporation, Andover, MA. Although the purchaser generally requires offsets, at this time, there are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded.

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...round_Systems_Upgrade_for_Taiwan160014176.php

I note two things. As already mentioned the, kit on the list is waaay off from matching the billion dollar price tag.

Last paragraph. How many notifications of intended sale to Taiwan has gone to Congress, with no sale concluded?

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

How many notifications of intended sale to Taiwan has gone to Congress, with no sale concluded?

None that I can think of. The US position (currently at least) is that Taiwan has to pass a budget/initial funds before congressional approval is sought.

 

[Rossiman]

What's the ceiling height on these missles, also what speed do they travel at.

 

[Grand Danois]

None that I can think of. The US position (currently at least) is that Taiwan has to pass a budget/initial funds before congressional approval is sought.

Ah, thanks. I was unaware of that.

 

[Firehorse]

..keeping in mind the fragile political situation in Pakistan, India has accelerated its ballistic missile defense (BMD) program and successfully tested an-"interceptor" missile over the Bay of Bengal this week.

The new "endo-atmospheric interceptor" put down a simulated electronic missile that is a prelude to striking a live Prithvi ballistic missile, modified to approximate an attack. According to Indian scientists, the "interceptor" missile could surpass the American Patriot Advanced Capability-3 system.

India established its "exo-atmospheric" hypersonic interceptor missile capabilities, borrowed from an Israeli system, in November last year when an incoming Prithvi missile was successfully destroyed.

State-controlled Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO), the main coordinating agency, intends to develop a two-tier BMD designed to intercept an incoming missile at both the "second mid-course and terminal phases". The design seems to be in place and needs to be upgraded.

India has already developed short, medium and long-range ballistic attack missiles, Akash, Prithvi and Agni, capable of delivering nuclear payloads. These are apart from the difficult-to-detect land-hugging Brahmos cruise missiles, developed jointly with Russia.

Over the next year, DRDO also has plans to carry out advanced tests for the 250-kilometer Prithvi and the longest-range inter-continental 1,500-2,500km Agni missiles that cover China. Defense officials say that India is looking to produce 20 Prithvi missiles and 50 Brahmos missiles annually. ..
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IL05Df03.html

Could Taiwan be seeking/getting BMD help from India? At the very least, they could be sharing design info.!

 

[Gripenator]

Could Taiwan be seeking/getting BMD help from India? At the very least, they could be sharing design info.!

Unlikely, any sharing will be under the table given Taiwan's deplorable international situation at the moment. Similar to unconfirmed reports a certain EU country 'assisted' CSIST in developing the seeker head for the HF-III AShM.

 

[Gripenator]

A billion dollars without the missiles, hell thats seems expensive for an upgrade of 3 systems. How many launchers per battery? With 16 Pac-3 missiles per launcher vis a vis 4 currently, it does provide a much greater capacity to counter a swarm attack. But no wonder they baulked at additional systems. What sort of costs are we looking at for a TC-2 AAM battery.

Cost of a TK-II battery is c.US$35million according to a friend although he may be wrong.

But expensive as the PAC-III systems are, Taiwan desperately needs at least 5 more batteries to cover vital infrastructure such as bridges, highways and airbases because the PAC-IIIs offer the optimum ABM capability (surpassing the new TK-III offering baseline PAC-II performance) although limited to terminal stage intercept and it is NOT as though they can't afford them (especially given the current context)-the only (significant) barrier are the stalling tactics of the KMT who are "throughly infiltrated" by "pro-reunificationist"/fifth column elements according to a senior source in the ROC MND, resulting in the current PAC-II batteries being upgraded (which kicked up the Kitty Hawk mess) instead of a purchase of new systems. In other news the 6 SSKs are dead in the water, P-3C sale has been approved while in the six year's delay the Bush Admin refuses to approve the sale of 66 F-16C/D B52+ because it wishes to secure the PRC's cooperation on N.Korea, not that a B52+ is adequate enough to assure a clear margin of air superiority over the Su30MK2 or J-10A anyway.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

not that a B52+ is adequate enough to assure a clear margin of air superiority over the Su30MK2 or J-10A anyway.

It is, however, an affordable way of filling a future gap in the ROCAF's capabilities until Taiwan can either develop a future fighter or purchase something like the F-35.

 

[Gripenator]

It is, however, an affordable way of filling a future gap in the ROCAF's capabilities until Taiwan can either develop a future fighter or purchase something like the F-35.

True, it is a far better alternative to the existing 60 odd F-5E/F in service now, one which I believe crashed into a SAF barracks killing 2 Singaporeans a few months ago due to ageing airframe issues. However, I have reason to believe that Taiwan is far better off:

a) putting on hold F-16 procurement until Bush leaves office (post 2008) and instead focus on acquiring more AIM-120C7 rounds (an extra 800-1200 would be good) to ensure ROCAF's F-16 fleet has at least 6 shots/aircraft in case of destruction of airfields etc

b) negotiating a Rafale deal for the replacement of the F-5E/Fs and the increasingly outclassed FCK-1 (66+128), streamlining the fleet and improving logistics and commonality issues with a possible further 60 to replace the M2000s. I personally believe the Fench would not pass up this opportunity given the abysmal sales situation the Rafale finds itself in atm with the opportunity for further sales to other branches of the ROC armed forces (eg. Leclercs for the ROCA, MICA VLS, Skorpenes/Marlin SSKs, upgrading of the deficient Kang Ding ADS etc). For Taiwan, this would represent a clear restoration of aerial superiority, possible ToT, coproduction, offensive assets instead of passive (PAC-III) even possble participation in the Neuron UCAV program as well sending a signal to the US that diversification is possible and that the F-16 is not the only option, possibly pushing the US to release the F-35A for ROCAF to compete for the replacement of the 150 F-16s from 1991. In addition from an intelligence perspective, there will NOT be any more "leaks" to the PRC re the M2000's RDY radar suite and capabilities as in 1992 as any leakage of the top-of-the-line tech on the Rafale will inevitably compromise further sales of the Rafale-which the French want to avoid at all costs. Given the changed political climate of France, I would say the odds of this happening are far greater than under Chirac if the ROC "LY"/parliament can get their act together.

Back to PAC-IIIs, at least five more batteries are needed and the three PAC-II GEM (soon to be upgraded) batteries should be redeployed to protect critical bridges and airbases for the simple reason that I have my own reasons to believe the accuracy (CEP) of PLA SRBMs will be severely degraded in wartime and that missiles hitting civilian areas in Taipei will be a great infowar coup for the ROC in addition to the blantant aggression of the PRC in launching the 'invasion'.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

putting on hold F-16 procurement until Bush leaves office (post 2008) and instead focus on acquiring more AIM-120C7 rounds (an extra 800-1200 would be good) to ensure ROCAF's F-16 fleet has at least 6 shots/aircraft in case of destruction of airfields etc

There is no way the US would approve sales of that magnitude, as China might panic thinking Taiwan was trying to build up a stockpile prior to taking some sort of political action next year.

Taiwan ordered over 200 more AMRAAMs last year. Doubtless it will place further orders in the coming years.

negotiating a Rafale deal.... I personally believe the Fench would not pass up this opportunity given the abysmal sales situation the Rafale finds itself in atm with the opportunity for further sales to other branches of the ROC armed forces

Taiwan, as far as I know, has been secretly trying to get the Rafale for a long time. But it can't budget for it until the deal is struck, otherwise China might try to disuade France through pressure or threats. Also the recent deals in China struck by Sarkozy and his apparent U-turn on arms sales to Beijing (not that it will get the embargo lifted) suggest France will put relations with China ahead of sales to Taiwan.

Taiwan will keep trying, but you need to remember it can't just call Paris up like the local takeaway. If there's ever the opportunity for something, assume Taiwan has already been trying to exploit it. Everything has to be behind closed doors, bar some US sales - even the Boeing deal for the Apache was worked out in private.

 

[Firehorse]

...the recent deals in China struck by Sarkozy and his apparent U-turn on arms sales to Beijing (not that it will get the embargo lifted) suggest France will put relations with China ahead of sales to Taiwan.

I also doubt that France will stab the PRC in the back by resuming arms sales to Taiwan. For Paris, there's no China la rupture!
Perhaps some 3rd country with French-made fighters could sell them to ROCAF, if only for spares.

 

[Gripenator]

There is no way the US would approve sales of that magnitude, as China might panic thinking Taiwan was trying to build up a stockpile prior to taking some sort of political action next year.

Taiwan ordered over 200 more AMRAAMs last year. Doubtless it will place further orders in the coming years.



Taiwan, as far as I know, has been secretly trying to get the Rafale for a long time. But it can't budget for it until the deal is struck, otherwise China might try to disuade France through pressure or threats. Also the recent deals in China struck by Sarkozy and his apparent U-turn on arms sales to Beijing (not that it will get the embargo lifted) suggest France will put relations with China ahead of sales to Taiwan.

Taiwan will keep trying, but you need to remember it can't just call Paris up like the local takeaway. If there's ever the opportunity for something, assume Taiwan has already been trying to exploit it. Everything has to be behind closed doors, bar some US sales - even the Boeing deal for the Apache was worked out in private.

218 AIM-120C7s to be precise, but I concur totally with your assessment, my contacts on Taiwan are extremely limited but from what I can find out, it appears that commonality issues and the fear that the LY won't approve budgeting like the 2001 deal is what is stalling such a potential sale. To be sure, the PRC bought a whole lot of Airbus jets and that probably will keep a lid on sales for the moment although with the 2008 ROC presidential elections and Dassault desperately attempting to find buyers the possibility for a sale post 2008 may be increased-it all depends on the LY monkeys really.

 

[Gripenator]

I also doubt that France will stab the PRC in the back by resuming arms sales to Taiwan. For Paris, there's no China la rupture!
Perhaps some 3rd country with French-made fighters could sell them to ROCAF, if only for spares.

Trust Atimes as a 'respected publication' to affirm that 'truth'nfloorl:

For example this article by Ahmed Quraishi, notice in the subtext at the bottom of the article he is employed by state run PTV? That should cast grave doubts on his obviously slanted atricle designed to only give one point of view-his own. Most Atimes articles are like that and I enjoy reading them only for their "humorous" content-the only author I'd recommend is Spengler-that man really is good.

Back to French arms sales, the reality is that like 1992 with Chirac, a leader's words mean nothing unless it is made legally binding under a treaty.

It's really that simple for the reason that Paris is known for having a rather "opportunistic" attitude in it's dealings with other countries similar to Russia, as the case of India and Pakistan reveals-Paris is not averse to selling to both sides. In fact, ROC military officers hold regular discussions with the miltary 'attaches' at the French Trade office in Taipei oddly reminiscient of the situation in 1992.

 

[Firehorse]

Well, anyone can be accused of being biased-rightly or wrongly. I agree that the French may sell to anyone; however, how much will they loose in future contracts, civilian or not, if they get caught selling their new wares to Taiwan? For them, it would be a lot safer to sell to Vietnam instead, if they can beat Russia's prices!

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Taiwan orders PAC-3 batteries

The Taiwanese legislative has approved a purchase of three new PAC-3 batteries, with the possibility of an order for another three next year.

I'm not surprised that this happened just before new elections, but it was still a pleasant surprise.