Dalai Lama and China

[tphuang]

Well, my view is that China is royally pissed off about the entire Taiwan and Dalai Lama episodes. Sure, the Americans are pissed off about the snub, but American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden. Having said that, I think Chinese response here is extremely childish and should've responded in other ways like what it's doing with the Iran situation. (ie: US sells weapon to Taiwan results in more Chinese weapon sales to Iran) They should not have taken their anger out on sailors.

Discussion onoff topic posts moved from this thread.

 

[rickusn]

"American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden."

Your kidding right? LOL ROTFLMAO

 

[Schumacher]

"American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden."

Your kidding right? LOL ROTFLMAO

Have an open mind my friend & you'll be surprised how many may not find that so funny.

 

[tphuang]

"American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden."

Your kidding right? LOL ROTFLMAO

Rick, I'm actually not kidding. The reason why Americans and most Westerners dismiss the effect of meeting Dalai Lama is because they do not know how Chinese minds operate. You can go visit China and you will see why this is the case. The reason is this, Chinese people generally view Separatism as the most pressing issue whereas Americans view terrorism as the top issue. Dalai Lama is the face of separatism for China and Osama is the face of terrorism for America. I'm not explaining this very well, but you can follow this to get an idea of this. Of course, you have to look at the Chinese history of its thousands years struggle of staying as a nation, its territory boundary in different dynasties and its struggle against Western invasions. For America, it's a recent thing. For China, it's been a really long struggle.

 

[rickusn]

Keep an open mind ?

What does that mean?

An open mind to what?

Any comparison of the Dalai Lama to Osama Bin Laden is ludicrous and absurd.

And is not based on facts, history or reality.

Anyone who asserts or contends otherwise is just being a shill for authoritarian regimes that are now slowly but surely re-gaining a solid hold(Death grip IMHO) on the world not unlike the 1930’s.

 

[rickusn]

Your reply is no excuse for your outrageous assertion.

 

[tphuang]

Your reply is no excuse for your outrageous assertion.

I don't mean that Chinese people hate Dalai Lama as much as Americans hate Osama, but the implication (on the other side's psyche) of Americans welcoming Dalai Lama can be compared to Chinese people welcoming Osama. A good experiment would be to go to China and ask some ordinary Chinese people what they feel about Americans welcoming Dalai Lama and awarding him with a medal. Then you can ask them why. That's all I can say I guess. Different people have different perspectives. Unless you talk to some ordinary Chinese people, you can't really appreciate how serious this is.

 

[rickusn]

Oh spare me.

America doesnt hate Bin Laden they want him brought to justice.

The Dalai Lama did nothing wrong.

The Chinese invaded Tibet. Under what compelling pretext?

What had Tibet done to China?

Nothing is the answer.

What can an ordinary citizen have against the Dalai Lama?

If you were correct you would have already have told us.

In fact the Tibetans have much more real grievances against the Chinese.

Oh I agree its serious.

This is not about perspective.

Your stance is shameful and disgraceful. If other Chinese truly feel the same way I quarantee it will come back to haunt them.

Comparing the Dalai Lama to Osama Bin Laden is..... I have run out of words.

And I truly cant believe your getting away with this. Thats the real sad part.

I was never a staunch supporter of independence for Taiwan but after this discussion with you I am.

I never really cared for the Dalai Lama however this slander can not go unrecognized for what it is.

And Im writing and emailing my elected represenatives to publicly support both Tibet and Taiwan. And that no course of appeasement should be undertaken as it will only embolden the Chinese government to demand more.

Because youve made it perfectly clear this is the right thing to do.

Truth and justice will prevail eventually but it looks like its going to be a hard road to travel.

Truth and justice is the standard.

As for "judge"-ing TP Huang has done exactly that to the Dalai Lama and convicted him of crimes he never committed. He also wishes to be his excutioner.

He has presented not one shred of evidence to justify his indefensible position.

But continues to make excuses that have no credibility not even an appearance of such.

And it appears by what TPHuang implies so have ALL Chinese which he assumes to speak for.

Although I dont believe it for a second nor should anyone else.

This is about power and control of oppression and cruelty.

Of lies and slander.

As for "realtionship freefall " the Chinese continue to escalate the tension for what purpose?

I submit the US should cut all dealings with the Chinese of every nature economic and diplomatic. If they are unwilling to sit down and confront these very serious issues w/o resorting to what amounts to a total denial that they are blameless in any shape form or manner.

The US has nothing to lose and everything to gain for standing up for what is right.

Will it be painful most certainly but doing what is right often is. However the rewards for doing so has no limits.

And everything to lose and nothing to gain from appeasement.

"i don't think they would risk a major rupture. "

It certainly appears they are.

Why?

We all know really: Its that the Chinese Government have no hope of controlling their own population as they gain economic power limited as it is.

This isnt about the ordinary Chinese "hating" the Dalai Lama its about the Chinese government wishing to continue maintaining unchallenged power and control over its population.

They cant do this w/o portraying the US as the problem same as Putin and the Russian governmentt.

The Dalia Lama is simply a red-herring issue as it has no basis in facts, history or reality as is the limited defensive missiles issue in Europe for the Russians.

Holy Cow I have been increasingly cynical about the world situtaition for quite awhile but never believed until now how close to the truth I was.

I must thank my antagonists and those of my country for making the picture perfectly clear.

Now I can only hope my leadership sees these events for what they really are and has the ability,competence and confidence to deal with them forthrightly and correctly w/o fear.

As was once so eloquently stated is again approprate and I paraphrase:

'We have nothing to fear but fear itself'

The so-called greatest generation of America is passing it is now time for a new generation to stand up and be counted.

 

[webmaster]

Discussion on off topic moved from this thread.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden.

Don't you mean that many Chinese see it that way - the rest of the world certainly doesn't.

Also you have it completely backwards. A lot of people would argue quite rightly that one of the few things holding young Tibetans back from a wave of bombings against Chinese businesses et al in Tibet is the Dalai Lama and his calls for peaceful action only. When he's dead no one will generate that sort of respect to keep young Tibetans in check.

China (I include a lot of Chinese people in this, not just the government) has this foolish nature of often demonising individuals and saying "if only X were dead, everything would be fine." It's any easy way to shift any possible blame for a situation off themselves. Junichiro Koizumi, Chen Shui-Bian, George Bush, the Dalai Lama - it's always just one, "evil" foreigner/traitor/troublemaker/whatever. Never China or a "patriotic" Chinese person. Yet very often China is as much, if not more, to blame for the problem than any foreign leader or country.

It's very sad, because China seems to think it can just wait for the Dalai Lama to die and then, of course, everything will be perfect. The sad fact is that if the Tibet problem is not resolved by the time of his death, I'm sure there will be an increase of violence and unrest in the region.

On the other hand, even if killing Osama Bin Laden wouldn't make things much better it certainly wouldn't make them worse.

 

[indian bull]

You are right, i mean chinese think that all others are foolish enough to beleive them. They are occupying lands of others and tell them that all is ok, don't worry itz a wasted part of your land, what you are gonna do with this, don't open your eyes as we also keep our public in darkness. But now the other nations are not going to believe them and are prepared to teach them a lesson.

Dalai lama is a messiah of peace and bin laden father of terrorism.

 

[SABRE]

"American gov't meeting Dalai Lama is like Chinese gov't meeting Osama Bin Laden."

Your kidding right? LOL ROTFLMAO

I think he means that America's meeting with Dalai Lama, for China, is like supporting Tibet's separatism; just like America would consider China's meeting with Bin Ladin as support for Terrorism (if they meet). He is just trying to make a point here.

Oh spare me.

America doesnt hate Bin Laden they want him brought to justice.

The Dalai Lama did nothing wrong.

The Chinese invaded Tibet. Under what compelling pretext?

What had Tibet done to China?

Nothing is the answer.

Same could be put down for America's war on Iraq.
What did Sadam do to USA?
The Americans invaded Iraq under what compelling pretext?
What has Iraq done to USA?
Nothing is the answer.

The major reasons for China occupying Tibet was that ethnically, historically & even culturally & linguistically it has been more closer to China than any other country (in fact it has not been closer to any country other than China on the basis of these factors). Secondly Tibet was part of the Qing Empire [correct me if I am wrong] & PRC seems to consider anything under Qings at any given time in history as part of China. The Qing reason goes for the Xinjiang province as well.


As for the rest of your post, rickusn; control your emotions. It will only bring about conflict which is not welcome on this forum. & He has not compared Dalai Lama with Bin Laden. Dont misinterpret him.


I have got just one question of my own. How is this thread/topic related to the subject of "Military/Defence"? This seems to be more of a political issue.

 

[Preceptor]

I have got just one question of my own. How is this thread/topic related to the subject of "Military/Defence"? This seems to be more of a political issue.

I tend to agree. This thread seems to be socio-political in nature and not defence. Also it seems to be one of the "hot button" topics which depending on culture and background will be viewed either for one side or the other, with little likelihood of any change in views following debate.

I would recommend this thread be closed.

-Preceptor

 

[SABRE]

I tend to agree. This thread seems to be socio-political in nature and not defence. Also it seems to be one of the "hot button" topics which depending on culture and background will be viewed either for one side or the other, with little likelihood of any change in views following debate.

I would recommend this thread be closed.

-Preceptor

Webs broke up the thread. Lets see if he wants to keep the thread or get it closed. I'll close it than or may be he himself would.

I sometimes wounder whats the purpose of "world affairs talk"? It has got to make its presence more visible.

 

[funtz]

The reality is, China is very sensitive to the Tibet and Taiwan issue we can look at it anyway we like, as for the very ironical statements that have osama bin laden and his the respected dalai lama in any comparision well that is just sad.

The major reasons for China occupying Tibet was that ethnically, historically & even culturally & linguistically it has been more closer to China than any other country (in fact it has not been closer to any country other than China on the basis of these factors). Secondly Tibet was part of the Qing Empire [correct me if I am wrong] & PRC seems to consider anything under Qings at any given time in history as part of China. The Qing reason goes for the Xinjiang province as well.

In absolute terms we live right on the border pass of niti mana with tibet, share the looks the language and the culture, its not only us the whole Bhotia belt in India is quite similar i guess, its a real mess

As for the reasons well if one looks at it there are a lot of claims and reasons in the whole region, i guess the nepalese kingdom can start to throw a couple of claims that can run up to 1900s if they wish for. Again some real mess if one wish to dig it up.

However all of that does not change anything, Tibet is a part of China for better or worse, and it is not going anywhere, China is very sensitive about this issue. And no military solution will achive that.

We can either live with this or ignore it, the time for helping Tibet as a nation came and went away.

as for a armed struggle, well the whole tibetian leadership in exile is against it, as it will achieve nothing but misery. it has been though of, the Special Frontier Force and that 22 (or may be they were the same) near Chakrata military base existed for a purpose.
Right now even here in India the goverment recognises this China will always be economically involved with the world, and all these diplomatic and strategic issues out of which this thread evolved will continue in their own funny ways.

As for the issue out of which this whole thing has come up, well what can China do, increase arms supply to Iran, and risk economic sanctions from the very nations that make a very good percentage of its trade, or may be start a series of sanctions of its own?

Still as sabre said this is about as political as one can go.

 

[SABRE]

In absolute terms we live right on the border pass of niti mana with tibet, share the looks the language and the culture, its not only us the whole Bhotia belt in India is quite similar i guess, its a real mess

Actually the people on the Indian side of the border are more Sinic (Chinese like) than Indian. In fact linguistically & culturally very different from rest of India. We can say entire South Asia is a very diverse region but the diversity in the North of India (near Chinese border) is like a commonality to Chinese. Or simply put they seem to be completely different.

As for the reasons well if one looks at it there are a lot of claims and reasons in the whole region, i guess the nepalese kingdom can start to throw a couple of claims that can run up to 1900s if they wish for. Again some real mess if one wish to dig it up.

Why would Nepal put it self to risk of Chinese actions. Nepal itself has been under direct affiliation of the Qing dynasty (along with Myanmar, Thailand, Koreas & Vietnam). The Qings prefered to keep Nepal a buffer between themselves & Mughal India & later British India, but they still had strong say in the administration of the area. That influence & Nepal's affiliation to Qings can become enough reason for China to take over Nepal. But than PRC to wants Nepal to be a buffer just like Qings had kept it.

Qing Empire & the affiliated zones:

Still as sabre said this is about as political as one can go.

Right on ... & if someone doesn't justify the thread as military/defence based discussion I am going to close it.

 

[funtz]

I think i know what we are like , the term bhotiya comes from some thing like 'from tibet' in older dialects.

I meant on the Indian side the state of Uttranchhal and Nepal Border was not a very well defined one after the old wars (that is always the case with Treaties that follow a war) and that has a long history, still agreements were achieved and were kept no case of aggresion now.
Infact outside of the broder historical definitions a lot of mess was there when it came to boundaries, even with Bhutan one can create a lot of issues if one wishes for however there are agreements that exist.
when the PRC eventually won tibet it was not as if the tibetians had no boundary agreements to define themselves and were open to be occupied, however the agreements went out of the window as soon as the military action was completed.

However the only history that matters is one that we live in right now, and that is that, the political maps of the whole region are not going to change now for a long time. what ever disputes remain will ultimatly die down, the real theat is in zones that are not even defined well- disputed regions, as it might become a free for all.

 

[SABRE]

Since no military justifications for the topic has been provided & since it seems to fit more into historical & political discussion I am closing the thread.

If anyone has an issues with that contact Webmaster or a supermod.