Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

If there are no savings through amalgamation I have to agree that bringing the two bodies together to form a kind of defacto coastguard would be a poor idea. BPC seems to be evolving into a reasonably effective organisation and it's ability to draw on assets from the RAN, RAAF and RCC when required makes economical use of resources.

Having given more thought to the idea of amalgamation of BPC and AMSA I don't think it is an idea worth pursuing.

Tas

Absolutely not.

AGRA is totally correct this and combination of AMSA and BPC would have a significantly detrimental effect in respect of the the primary safety/environmental protection focus of AMSA. Believe me, I work in this area.

AMSA is still one of the premier Maritime Authorities despite some problems with recruitement in recent times. The need to deal with the conflicting responsiblites of security and safetly will imapct upon this.

AMSA is self funded (excepte the RCC) authority based on levies of ships using our ports. It maintains a degree of independence for the policitcal/government control having is own board. As such it is harder for non safety - non environmental pressures to effect the operation of the organisation meaning it remains focused on its core responsibilities.

To join the BPc means dismantly the funding systems, moving away from the core focus and will detract for the organsisions ability to maintain its current standards.

 

[McTaff]

AMSA is self funded (excepte the RCC) authority based on levies of ships using our ports. It maintains a degree of independence for the policitcal/government control having is own board. As such it is harder for non safety - non environmental pressures to effect the operation of the organisation meaning it remains focused on its core responsibilities.

To join the BPc means dismantly the funding systems, moving away from the core focus and will detract for the organsisions ability to maintain its current standards.

This is a very important set of facts.

Sometimes services such as this, unless something is very wrong, should not be touched. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The use of RAN/RAAF assets by BPC is an excellent strategy, as the familiarity with everything from rules and procedures, to communications and simple understanding of asset capability and legal implications means that the ADF and BPC work together quickly and easily. It wouldn't hurt for BPC to have more of their own gear though, as reliance on the ADF will be very negative if the resources are required elsewhere on short notice.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I don't think Rudd is going to perform any massive changes in defence.

I think the 4th AWD is a absolute requirement. Only massive flaws/overspending will kill the 4th AWD. Its not so much should we get one, but how much should we pay for it.

Infact if all goes well a 5th AWD is not completely impossible.

It will be interesting to see what labour come up with in regards to sealift. Another LHD or something else.

 

[AGRA]

It wouldn't hurt for BPC to have more of their own gear though, as reliance on the ADF will be very negative if the resources are required elsewhere on short notice.

Most of what BPC uses for surveillance is their own. The contribution of RAAF AP-3Cs is a drop in the ocean compared to the Coastwatch Dash-8s – the figures are in the Customs annual report if anyone wants to look them up. With BPC now leasing the AMSA Dorniers for AMIS work while those Dorniers are doing their training flights (a fantastic case of BPC-AMSA interagency synergy) then the contribution of the AP-3Cs as a percentage is going to be even smaller.

It is important to note that BPC has set up their own “capability development” office to explore new equipment options, in particular replacing the NMU’s BCPBs (ie Custom’s patrol boats). While Customs doesn’t have the kind of big funding allotments to spend $100m blocks on new ships like owned OPVs they can afford to buy 15 year life aluminium boats like the ACPBs (Armidales) which are basically bigger and better BCPBs anyway.

The reliance on the ADF is mostly for response assets in the form of the PBs and NMU had to pull much of the weight alone when the ACPBs were U/S because of the fuel problem and the FCPBs had been withdrawn from service. A better balance between NMU and the RAN would be a good idea and under either party in Govt they are likely to grow from 8 BCPBs to at least 12 ACPBs.

 

[Jezza]

I hope the ruddster keeps all defence acquistions except the JSF.
What export variant would we get?????????
Not a full blown us version.
They can jamm it up there ass.
Aus would only need 4.5 gen aircraft any way.
New build single seat f-15s built new as golden eagle standard
or 100 super hornets with 10 growlers.

 

[Jezza]

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued Nov. 15, 2007)

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Ft. Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $134,188,724 modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-award-fee contract (N00019-02-C-3002).

This modification is to continue the design, development, verification, and test of Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Partner Version Air System development under the JSF Delta System Development and Demonstration Effort (Delta SDD).

The purpose of the Delta SDD is to develop a version of the JSF Air System that meets U.S. National Disclosure Policy, but remains common to the U.S. Air System, where possible.

Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (68 percent), Orlando, Fla. (24 percent), and El Segundo, Calif. (8 percent), and is expected to be completed in October 2013. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year.

The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Md., is the contracting activity.

-ends-

to add to above

 

[alexsa]

(Source: US Department of Defense; issued Nov. 15, 2007)

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Ft. Worth, Texas, is being awarded a $134,188,724 modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-award-fee contract (N00019-02-C-3002).

This modification is to continue the design, development, verification, and test of Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Partner Version Air System development under the JSF Delta System Development and Demonstration Effort (Delta SDD).

The purpose of the Delta SDD is to develop a version of the JSF Air System that meets U.S. National Disclosure Policy, but remains common to the U.S. Air System, where possible.

Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (68 percent), Orlando, Fla. (24 percent), and El Segundo, Calif. (8 percent), and is expected to be completed in October 2013. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year.

The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Md., is the contracting activity.

-ends-

to add to above

What is your point exactly. If JSF lives up to expectations it will be a much better aircraft than the SH and will give Australia quite an edge. the idea of introducing a 'golden eagle' has some pretty serious cost implications (i.e we don't run the type currently and we would have to pay for the single seat deelopment to fit our requirements) that would see it cost almost as much as JSF as far as I can tell.

Anyway this is off topic and should be in the RAAF thread.

 

[Grandstrat]

I hope the ruddster keeps all defence acquistions except the JSF.
What export variant would we get?????????
Not a full blown us version.
They can jamm it up there ass.
Aus would only need 4.5 gen aircraft any way.
New build single seat f-15s built new as golden eagle standard
or 100 super hornets with 10 growlers.

We only need 4.5 gen aircraft now. What about in 10 years? 15? 20? By surely the requirement would be for better equipment. In the long run JSF would have to be the better option, both in terms in capability and in cost. It'll be a design that we could keep for longer rather than having to replace an outmmoded design sooner.

 

[Preceptor]

As mentioned by Alexsa, discussion of aircraft belongs in the Military Aviation category, likely the RAAF thread unless it specifically is involving the Fleet Air Arm or perhaps ASW/MPA aircraft. Please continue any further discussion of Australia fighter aircraft procurement ideas or plans in the appropriate category and thread.

-Preceptor

 

[diggumsbang]

i think it will be interesting to see where the Rudd labor government takes the navy in terms of capability. whether it makes it a more self reliant capability or maybe even a more offensively strong unit (ie TLAM) for the new destroyers. and their stance on operating F-35's on the LHD's will also be an interesting area to watch over the next 5 or so years. i believe they are doing a massive review of the defence whitepaper of 2000...would this mean that any major defence purchases will have to wait until the new whitepaper has been produced?

 

[Tasman]

i think it will be interesting to see where the Rudd labor government takes the navy in terms of capability. whether it makes it a more self reliant capability or maybe even a more offensively strong unit (ie TLAM) for the new destroyers. and their stance on operating F-35's on the LHD's will also be an interesting area to watch over the next 5 or so years. i believe they are doing a massive review of the defence whitepaper of 2000...would this mean that any major defence purchases will have to wait until the new whitepaper has been produced?

They seem to have committed to continuing with programs already begun, i.e. AWD, LHD and Super Hornet. I wouldn't be surprised to see a bit of a moratorium on new procurement contracts in other areas whilst the review takes place.

Tas

 

[riksavage]

Off topic, but still valid:

I noted with interest the Pacific Reach Submarine Exercise being hosted at Garden Island Western Australia, with over a 1000 military participants from 25 nations from the Commonwealth, China, the US, Russia and Japan. As part of the event the UK RN has been show-boating their Submarine Parachute Assistance Group techniques in support of a submarine rescue.

I know in June of 2004, the UK, France and Norway placed a contract with Rolls-Royce for the development of a new submarine rescue system, known as NSRS, which will replace the LR5.

Does Australia have or plan to adapt similar bilateral relationships with other Sub users in the region, say with Singapore for example? The ever increasing number of submarines in Asia-Pac must mean there’s scope for a joint rescue service amongst nations with stong military ties?

I heard recently (rumour only) that Singapore has signed a contract with a UK company that bought the old LR5 to provide a retained sub-rescue service.

 

[AGRA]

Heah we need an underwater rescue system for our submarine rescue system...

However the Australian military relationship with Singapore is different to the military relationship between the UK, France and Norway. We have the 5PDA with Singapore but it is nowhere near as strong as NATO.

Plus there is geography. The UK, France and Norway are a hell of a lot closer than Australia and Singapore... Which BTW - for our Northern Hemisphere friends - Singapore is as far away from Sydney as Dubai is from London...

 

[alexsa]

Heah we need an underwater rescue system for our submarine rescue system...

...

Been very quiet on the 'lost remora' front. Any reports on the cause of the incident.

 

[AGRA]

Been very quiet on the 'lost remora' front. Any reports on the cause of the incident.

Defence said it was a failure in the winching system. It went down to 130-140m and then they were able to pull it up on an auxiliary gear to shallow enough waters for divers to rescue the two crew.

But then it went back down and was only salvaged by the US gear and crews brought out to recover the Black Hawk and SAS Trooper lost off Fiji. Its in Canada until next year sometime with the OEM being fixed up.

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6223

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6603

 

[riksavage]

AGRA - Distance is a factor, but not a determining one. Current systems can be deployed by heavy lift, and when Australia finally gets the C17, they could deploy a sub rescue system to a port closest to the incident where it would then be loaded on to a suitable vessel. Countries such as Singapore, Japan and Korea could join the program, help support it financially and attach man-power allowing for a full-time unit to remain on stand-by, say at Garden Island, WA.

An agreement could be struck with the UK, Norway and France where they cover the Northern Hemisphere (North Atlantic / Med) whilst the Aus based system covers Asia-Pac / South Pacific and the US system could cover the rest under a common mutual support system.

 

[Aussie Digger]

AGRA - Distance is a factor, but not a determining one. Current systems can be deployed by heavy lift, and when Australia finally gets the C17, they could deploy a sub rescue system to a port closest to the incident where it would then be loaded on to a suitable vessel. Countries such as Singapore, Japan and Korea could join the program, help support it financially and attach man-power allowing for a full-time unit to remain on stand-by, say at Garden Island, WA.

An agreement could be struck with the UK, Norway and France where they cover the Northern Hemisphere (North Atlantic / Med) whilst the Aus based system covers Asia-Pac / South Pacific and the US system could cover the rest under a common mutual support system.

RAAF already have 2x C-17's in-service with the remaining 2 due in 2008...

Regards

AD

 

[StingrayOZ]

So these can be deployed out the back of a C-17? That would be very cool!

I see Ramora can be carried by a C-130.

Those two sitting on the bottom of a sea bed at that depth (~140m) must have been packing poo.

 

[octopus7]

My niece who is R.A.N has talked me into being an AWA (sonar operator) on subs instead of enlisting as a boatswain's mate. But it's the incidents like mentioned above that worry me as I can't imagine anything worse than being trapped, deep on the ocean floor while waiting for help to arrive.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

My niece who is R.A.N has talked me into being an AWA (sonar operator) on subs instead of enlisting as a boatswain's mate. But it's the incidents like mentioned above that worry me as I can't imagine anything worse than being trapped, deep on the ocean floor while waiting for help to arrive.

It takes a special type of person to get your dolphins. I love subs myself, captining a collins would have to be up there with one of the best jobs on the plannet. But i dont know if i have what it takes to be in subs. I respect the hell out of you for doing it.