Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh and Saudis to "receive JF-17s"

[drg]

I'm with SABRE

Yeah, only Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe are 'definites' on order possibilities. I also agree with tphuang about the Saudis being off the list, however i would aslo argue that whilst Iran may buy the JF-17, I don't reckon that Egypt will buy it, nor Algeria. Although there is a strong histroy of co-operation between Egypt and China, I don't think that with the amount of equipment that Egypt is currently getting from the US, that Egypt would need the JF-17 in its air forces inventory, even if it is meant to replace older fighters.
I also think that, with the 'common opinion' (or what seems to be the current opinion) that the Thunder is a 'downgraded F-16', I don't think it will have the...what would you call it...the...prestige I suppose, to make it extremely attractive to countries with restrictive budgets. The trend that I see currently, and over the last few years, is simply for countries to upgrade existing hardware, with new equipment, or weapons, rather than to go out and buy and in turn, try to incorporate new systems. I honestly don't think that the JF-17 has the pulling power required to make major sales to mid-sized countries (like Algeria).
Phew! I'm done!

 

[qwerty223]

Yeah, only Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe are 'definites' on order possibilities. I also agree with tphuang about the Saudis being off the list, however i would aslo argue that whilst Iran may buy the JF-17, I don't reckon that Egypt will buy it, nor Algeria. Although there is a strong histroy of co-operation between Egypt and China, I don't think that with the amount of equipment that Egypt is currently getting from the US, that Egypt would need the JF-17 in its air forces inventory, even if it is meant to replace older fighters.
I also think that, with the 'common opinion' (or what seems to be the current opinion) that the Thunder is a 'downgraded F-16', I don't think it will have the...what would you call it...the...prestige I suppose, to make it extremely attractive to countries with restrictive budgets. The trend that I see currently, and over the last few years, is simply for countries to upgrade existing hardware, with new equipment, or weapons, rather than to go out and buy and in turn, try to incorporate new systems. I honestly don't think that the JF-17 has the pulling power required to make major sales to mid-sized countries (like Algeria).
Phew! I'm done!

Well, JF-17 had all the contemporary features, but non of them are common accepted as on par with the contemporaries. But given the list, except for Saudi and Algeria, all others need only a basic air power. The role they op for is either patrol and most important, air support to ground forces. And since the Chinese made the PGM so affordable, it is very attractive to poor country like given example in the list.

 

[swerve]

drg,

reasonable points, mostly not disputable. But there is one thing ... You suggest that countries which may find it hard to buy better fighters in the numbers they want, would probably rather upgrade old fighters (e.g. Morocco with its Mirage F.1s) than consider the JF-17 to make up the numbers. In some cases, I agree, but in others, old aircraft may be too old to be worth upgrading. Egypt may be in that position.

 

[tphuang]

Yeah, only Azerbaijan and Zimbabwe are 'definites' on order possibilities. I also agree with tphuang about the Saudis being off the list, however i would aslo argue that whilst Iran may buy the JF-17, I don't reckon that Egypt will buy it, nor Algeria. Although there is a strong histroy of co-operation between Egypt and China, I don't think that with the amount of equipment that Egypt is currently getting from the US, that Egypt would need the JF-17 in its air forces inventory, even if it is meant to replace older fighters.
I also think that, with the 'common opinion' (or what seems to be the current opinion) that the Thunder is a 'downgraded F-16', I don't think it will have the...what would you call it...the...prestige I suppose, to make it extremely attractive to countries with restrictive budgets. The trend that I see currently, and over the last few years, is simply for countries to upgrade existing hardware, with new equipment, or weapons, rather than to go out and buy and in turn, try to incorporate new systems. I honestly don't think that the JF-17 has the pulling power required to make major sales to mid-sized countries (like Algeria).
Phew! I'm done!

well, believe what you must, but from what I'm hearing, CAC is confident of a lot of orders from the Muslim world. As for downgraded F-16, depending on which version you are talking about. Certainly, it's better than F-16 A/B that can't fire AMRAAM. And Egyptians can get SD-10 for sure.

 

[Ths]

I think there is quite another game afoot here:

Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Algeria and inderectly Lebanon - not to mention other muslim countries are petroleum producers - and China has a voracious appetite for petroleum.
China is desperately trying to buy oil with weapons to escape the vice of the USD.

These muslim nation are sort of in the market, because there is no way the USA will sell advanced weapons to them - and it seems that even France are getting second thoughts (they have a tendency to default on their payments). So the more fundamentalist threatned muslim countries have increasing difficulty in optaining weapons at all.

 

[eaf-f16]

well, believe what you must, but from what I'm hearing, CAC is confident of a lot of orders from the Muslim world. As for downgraded F-16, depending on which version you are talking about. Certainly, it's better than F-16 A/B that can't fire AMRAAM. And Egyptians can get SD-10 for sure.

IIRC, one the reasons we were having doubts about buying the JF-17's is because we were denied the SD-10. Or is that false?

I'm really not sure...

Anyways, I think the 48 JF-17's with French weaponry/avionics (Pakistan is considering doing this with their JF-17's) is pretty good deal for Lebanon which has no air force.

 

[eaf-f16]

I think there is quite another game afoot here:

Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Algeria and inderectly Lebanon - not to mention other muslim countries are petroleum producers - and China has a voracious appetite for petroleum.
China is desperately trying to buy oil with weapons to escape the vice of the USD.

These muslim nation are sort of in the market, because there is no way the USA will sell advanced weapons to them - and it seems that even France are getting second thoughts (they have a tendency to default on their payments). So the more fundamentalist threatned muslim countries have increasing difficulty in optaining weapons at all.

Saudi Arabia just bought 72 Eurofighters with alot of technology transfers, JDAM's and AMRAAM's from the US, upgraded their F-15 fleet which, IIRC, is the third largest fleet of F-15's in the world, and is going to upgrade and equip their Tornado fleet with super-advanced missiles and avionics. Considering how Saudi Arabia's co-founder also founded Wahhabism which is Al-Qaida's ideology and almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi I really don't see how your statement is true.

Also Pakistan, which is second only to Afghanistan when it comes to being a terrorist headquarters, is about to get F-16 Block 52+'s (the latest version) from the US.

Pakistan was especially threatened by a fundamentalist take over because of the recent political turmoil but their still getting advanced weapons from the US.

By the way, France was trying to peddle their latest fighter, the Rafale, to Ghaddafi's Libya not two months ago. In fact I cannot name a single country in the Middle East (with the exception of Iran and Syria) that France hasn't tried to sell the Rafale to.

 

[SABRE]

Saudi Arabia just bought 72 Eurofighters with alot of technology transfers, JDAM's and AMRAAM's from the US, upgraded their F-15 fleet which, IIRC, is the third largest fleet of F-15's in the world, and is going to upgrade and equip their Tornado fleet with super-advanced missiles and avionics. Considering how Saudi Arabia's co-founder also founded Wahhabism which is Al-Qaida's ideology and almost all of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi I really don't see how your statement is true.

Also Pakistan, which is second only to Afghanistan when it comes to being a terrorist headquarters, is about to get F-16 Block 52+'s (the latest version) from the US.

Pakistan was especially threatened by a fundamentalist take over because of the recent political turmoil but their still getting advanced weapons from the US.

By the way, France was trying to peddle their latest fighter, the Rafale, to Ghaddafi's Libya not two months ago. In fact I cannot name a single country in the Middle East (with the exception of Iran and Syria) that France hasn't tried to sell the Rafale to.

eaf-f16 you are making the post too political. Me minusing my self as a moderator can argue that although many terrorists were found in Pakistan but the major terrorist exporters have been Egypt, Jordon & Saudi Arabia. I mean you guys produce the best terrorists & terror groups & send them to threaten & attack others. I mean every next terrorist Pakistani Forces arrest come out to be from mostly these 3 countries (this keep Afghans out).

& I have posted a billion times on "why extremists cannot take over Pakistan?".

Now if any further insulting remarks from you for any state would either end up getting this thread closed or you banned or may be the combination of both.

 

[SABRE]

IIRC, one the reasons we were having doubts about buying the JF-17's is because we were denied the SD-10. Or is that false?

I'm really not sure...

Have you been reading Wikipedia? Lots of ppl have been BSing on it regarding SD-10. One of them being my own friend & he put nothing but BS there.

Anyways, I think the 48 JF-17's with French weaponry/avionics (Pakistan is considering doing this with their JF-17's) is pretty good deal for Lebanon which has no air force.

The French Radar & Missiles are for PAF JF-17s. The export JF-17 PAC would be offering would be equipped with Chinese avionics, unless the buyer decided to go western with the fighter. I doubt Lebanon (if its buying) would go for Western Avionics.

 

[eaf-f16]

Now if any further insulting remarks from you for any state would either end up getting this thread closed or you banned or may be the combination of both.

I didn't mean to insult Pakistan. Far from it. I was trying to make a point that even if a Muslim country is suffering from terrorism it doesn't mean that they won't get weapons. I just used the two most prominent examples of Muslim countries suffering from terrorism/extremism problems and show how their weapons sales don't get effected. That's what I meant to say.

Sorry if I came off as insulting. Didn't mean it.

 

[eaf-f16]

Have you been reading Wikipedia? Lots of ppl have been BSing on it regarding SD-10. One of them being my own friend & he put nothing but BS there.

Can't remember where I read it but I'm guessing it might have been there (my bad). And I don't know why people like to BS alot on Wikipedia. What benefit does it bring to them exactly?

Guess we will never know...

The French Radar & Missiles are for PAF JF-17s. The export JF-17 PAC would be offering would be equipped with Chinese avionics, unless the buyer decided to go western with the fighter. I doubt Lebanon (if its buying) would go for Western Avionics.

Why is that?

It's not like they would be making a wrong move equipping the JF-17 with a French radar and missiles. And like you said, if the buyer wants to equip it with Western equipment they can, right?

 

[Gripenator]

Can't remember where I read it but I'm guessing it might have been there (my bad). And I don't know why people like to BS alot on Wikipedia. What benefit does it bring to them exactly?

Guess we will never know...



Why is that?

It's not like they would be making a wrong move equipping the JF-17 with a French radar and missiles. And like you said, if the buyer wants to equip it with Western equipment they can, right?

The answer to your first question involves some sort of personal 'pride' and/or nationalism.

The answer to your second question is cost. I believe the Lebanese armed forces rely on second hand or donated equipment, latest word has them shopping for second hand F-5s. Besides, the Lebanese don't need an air force-their proximity to Israel ensures any further outbreak of hostilities will reduce their latest acquisitions to smouldering heaps of burning metal......

 

[SABRE]

Why is that?

It's not like they would be making a wrong move equipping the JF-17 with a French radar and missiles. And like you said, if the buyer wants to equip it with Western equipment they can, right?

Because so far France has approved sell of these equipments for PAF. PAC has yet to get approval of further export. Hence unless the export license is not given to PAC the export JF-17s PAF will produce will be equipped with Chinese avionics & weapons.

 

[swerve]

... I believe the Lebanese armed forces rely on second hand or donated equipment, latest word has them shopping for second hand F-5s. Besides, the Lebanese don't need an air force-their proximity to Israel ensures any further outbreak of hostilities will reduce their latest acquisitions to smouldering heaps of burning metal......

1) So I've heard.

2) The Lebanese think an air force could be handy sometimes for internal use.

3) The Israelis have not bothered to attack the Lebanese air force in the past, as long as it stays on the ground when Israeli aircraft are overhead. Sort of a tacit understanding. Why would that change?

 

[eaf-f16]

...the Lebanese don't need an air force-their proximity to Israel ensures any further outbreak of hostilities will reduce their latest acquisitions to smouldering heaps of burning metal......

If the Lebanese get a good enough plane (Typhoon, Su-30, etc.) that might not be the case. Of course they can't afford such planes.

IMO, the Lebanese need something to defend the skies over the neighborhoods in south of Lebanon since Israel likes to hit apartment buildings over there. The S-300/S-400 systems (if they can afford them) are more effective than some of the modern fighter jets out right now and definitely more cost effective...

 

[SABRE]

What Lebanese need is a good air defence system. A single squadron of fighters won't be helping them fight Israel.

 

[swerve]

What Lebanese need is a good air defence system. A single squadron of fighters won't be helping them fight Israel.

Indeed. But they're not looking for something to fight Israel.

 

[SABRE]

Indeed. But they're not looking for something to fight Israel.

Well if they are not looking to Israel or anyone else than they should just deploy good air-defence system.

 

[swerve]

Well if they are not looking to Israel or anyone else than they should just deploy good air-defence system.

Air-defence systems can't drop bombs on rebels, or do air policing over areas where the government may not have the clout to install ground-based air defence systems.

You appear to assume that fighters must be for use against external enemis, but I think the Lebanese government wants them for internal use.

 

[SABRE]

Air-defence systems can't drop bombs on rebels, or do air policing over areas where the government may not have the clout to install ground-based air defence systems.

You appear to assume that fighters must be for use against external enemis, but I think the Lebanese government wants them for internal use.

I don't think Labanese would carryout any internal actions. They do still remember the civil War. There is possibly no way Labanese could fight Hizbollah (if thats what you are assuming as their target). Plus, this might again give leverage to Syria to interfere into Lebanon.

Coming back to JF-17s I do not think Lebanon is going to buy any. Its not just buying 12 JF-17s its also putting up support infrastructure, training, maintainance & other facilities. I don't know if Labanese are willing to commit that much.