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Australian M113s
- Thread starter Ozymandias
- Start date
Interestingly we talked about surplus Marders in the Chile thread.
The Marder is ok, especially when compared to an upgraded M113 but they are really down and I expect at least the engine would need to be rebuilt to prevent high maintenance costs/time.
As for IED mine threats.
There is an upgrade available (already in service with the Bundeswehr) from A3 to A5 which adds additional mine protection.
This could be added to a pool of Marders which can be deployed to oversea missions like A-stan or Iraq.
The Marder is ok, especially when compared to an upgraded M113 but they are really down and I expect at least the engine would need to be rebuilt to prevent high maintenance costs/time.
As for IED mine threats.
There is an upgrade available (already in service with the Bundeswehr) from A3 to A5 which adds additional mine protection.
This could be added to a pool of Marders which can be deployed to oversea missions like A-stan or Iraq.
One thing to note maybe is that the engine of the Marder was never upgraded. It's still the same model as 36 years ago at original introduction.
The "newest" Marders were built 32 years ago (1975).
The first sale attempt to Greece btw was coupled with an upgrade, but only for the turret - it would have kept the old engine.
74 out of about 600, with something like half of them currently in Kosovo *cough*
Theoretically you could buy Marders on the cheap and then mimic the UK Bulldog program, by installing:
The 20mm cannon brings a lot to the table when benchmarked against either 7.62mm or 50.cal mounted RWS.
- New engine;
- Aircon;
- Electronic Countermeasures;
- Secure Comms, and
- Reactive armour
The 20mm cannon brings a lot to the table when benchmarked against either 7.62mm or 50.cal mounted RWS.
On the cost of the M113 they are basically worthless. They are worth there weight in scrap. US prohibits any sale, no one else would want them or would be allowed to have them. See NZ's.
We have plenty of spares, 700 and only <350 getting the upgrade last count? The rest will be in storage. Shame really, as they would be perfect for collectors as they are fair easy to maintain and operate. Bus engine, simple suspension etc. APC's are a favourite for collectors being much smaller and cheaper to operate than late model tanks.
I would be pretty hesitant sending them in against IED's. Better than a car, but jesus, IED have come a long way. anything short of a MBT or a V hull I would be sitting on the top with a couple of sand bags!..
I think they would be more useful in places say like Timor, poor roads, lightly armed rascals etc. Sort of heavy duty peace keeping.
This is an area you can't afford to skimp on money. Having a single full APC get hit by a IED would have a massive human/political effect.
We have plenty of spares, 700 and only <350 getting the upgrade last count? The rest will be in storage. Shame really, as they would be perfect for collectors as they are fair easy to maintain and operate. Bus engine, simple suspension etc. APC's are a favourite for collectors being much smaller and cheaper to operate than late model tanks.
I would be pretty hesitant sending them in against IED's. Better than a car, but jesus, IED have come a long way. anything short of a MBT or a V hull I would be sitting on the top with a couple of sand bags!..
I think they would be more useful in places say like Timor, poor roads, lightly armed rascals etc. Sort of heavy duty peace keeping.
This is an area you can't afford to skimp on money. Having a single full APC get hit by a IED would have a massive human/political effect.
@Kato
I didn't mean they should buy the A5s (I expect them to be the last ones scrapped when Puma enters service), but they could buy A3s and upgrade some of them to A5 so that they have a pool of mine protected A5s ready for deployment while the normal bunch of A3s is in service with the regular units.
I didn't mean they should buy the A5s (I expect them to be the last ones scrapped when Puma enters service), but they could buy A3s and upgrade some of them to A5 so that they have a pool of mine protected A5s ready for deployment while the normal bunch of A3s is in service with the regular units.
I think you make some good points here Stingray. Australia has been comparatively lucky so far that most soldiers in armoured vehicles hit by IED's have survived. Soldiers sent into high risk areas deserve the very best protection available. Based on what has been said in this thread, the M113 does not provide that even with its current upgrade. It may well prove useful for training and secondary conflicts along the lines you mention. If they are to be deployed to Afghanistan, however, I hope that they will have their protection enhanced along the lines suggested by AD. Better still Australia ought to acquire a suitable replacement vehicle for frontline use as a matter of urgency.
Tas
Yes it has.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Funny, that was the solution some US M113 riders/crew used in Vietnam. Sandbags were placed in the bottom of the hull, and the passengers/crew (except driver) rode on top while traveling unless under fire. That was while dealing with the mines and IEDs of forty years ago. Granted, some of the IEDs used then were quite potent, like captured or undetonated artillery shells, but still, it was some time ago.
I think the M113 (in the ADF context) still has some useful life left in it. In part for training, as well as providing equipment that can be used to fill out the Orbat, particularly for Reserve units. While an M113 is not the best troop transport, I think it would be appreciated on a deployment more than a Land Rover or unarmoured truck. Also as mentioned in limited peacekeeping roles the M113 I think would serve reasonably well. Particularly in areas with limited transportation infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc) and little in the way of heavy weapons. What I suspect though is that over time, such conflicts will dwindle, largely due to the ease with which weapons like the RPG can be gathered, or as knowledge of IED manufacture spreads.
Having said that, it would be nice for a few to be placed with museums or private collectors. Care would need to be taken so that no more cell towers are losts though.
-Cheers
Thanks AGR.
....the M113 upgrade was probably the best option for an APC that could carry a full infantry section available at the time it was ordered. I know a few blokes that are pretty impressed with the finished product. its much quieter than the old vehicle and offers much better protection. The spall liners are effective. the turret and sighting systems are not bad,and comfort is heaps better again. i dont think its as useless as some posters would have us believe. As for IED,s...thats a real problem when operating in an urban environment.(sticking to roads). You would be better off in bushmasters and Lav,s for speed in any case, and thats what the boys are doing anyway. in the bush, the M113,s will be fine, offering good protection from small arms and shapnel, which is what the thing is designed to do!
Now we have that change in GOVT:shudder they wont be deployed outside of Aus (except maybe timor type missions) anyway, and will be fine. for the defence of AUS, again they would be very capable. the men from D Coy 6 RAR in Long Tan would agree that they can deliver back up, in the bush effectivly.
Now we have that change in GOVT:shudder they wont be deployed outside of Aus (except maybe timor type missions) anyway, and will be fine. for the defence of AUS, again they would be very capable. the men from D Coy 6 RAR in Long Tan would agree that they can deliver back up, in the bush effectivly.
The interesting thing here is that the Army has taken AWAY the M113s from the Reserve units - even the un-upgraded ones. They're now equipped with completely unarmoured IIMV 6x6 Perenties which have become available in large numbers now that the Bushmaster is in service.
A good mate of mine is getting posted to one of these Reserve units and he says the reason is that these units are now viewed mostly as breeding grounds for ARA transfers, and the way to do this at minimal cost and with minimal wasted maintenance down time is with 'pretend' armour. The crews can get their tactics sorted out and the cavalry scouts can get theirs sorted out so that they're ready for ARA transfers.
Ironically the Perenties used to be pretend Bushmasters when they were with the motorised infantry units, now they're with the cav they're pretend ASLAVs!
Far too much 'pretending' for my liking!
It does seem that the reserve is being used more and more to make up numbers to supplement the regular army for overseas deployments. However, there have also been deployments (e.g. to the Solomon Islands) by more or less complete reserve units. I think it is penny pinching not to equip the reserves with the equipment they will be expected to use operationally. Next we will expect our reserve soldiers to use broomsticks to simulate rifles!
:shudder
Tas
Never mind the reserves using broom sticks to simulate rifles, under keating we used our voices to simulate blanks! with the odd whistle to simulate incoming followed by the yelling of "HUGE EXPLOSION" to simulate a huge explosion. they removed the pilot chute from our T10R reserve parachutes, cause we didnt have malfunctions with our mains, to save a few bucks, and re-wrote the training manual for deployment of the reserve in case of a malfunction. (they put them back after after the double malfunction on the coco,s islands 1986, and the death of Pte bateman ex diamond dollar 1987).I only pray that rudd will be different...but i have a good memory, and am pessamistic about the future of our armed forces. BTW, the numbers of soldiers in battalians were crimminally low during those years. only 1 and 2/4 RAR were any where near full streangth. Charlie coy 3 RAR became hagar PL in 1987 with a streangth of about 4 officers and 26 men. delta was on paper only, spt coy was around 100, A and B were close to full streangth. 6 and 8/9 were in the same boat as 3...untill they became ready reserve...leaving only 2 full streangth Bns and 2 very under streangth Bns. Poor blokes in 5/7 had no track hours for a long time, and did mostly vehicle maintanance for nearly 2 years. All the good work rebuilding is about to come undone...Far too much 'pretending' for my liking!
It does seem that the reserve is being used more and more to make up numbers to supplement the regular army for overseas deployments. However, there have also been deployments (e.g. to the Solomon Islands) by more or less complete reserve units. I think it is penny pinching not to equip the reserves with the equipment they will be expected to use operationally. Next we will expect our reserve soldiers to use broomsticks to simulate rifles!
:shudder
Tas
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Sounds like how the US Army conducted "tank" exercises during the 1930's. IIRC various types of army trucks (Ford, etc) would drive around in the fields around the armour training centres (Knox, not sure if other places) with signs like Tank or Armored Car painted on the windshield and sides. This was so that commanders could get some field experience commanding "armour" units in the field. OTOH I think part of the reason real tanks and other armoured vehicles were not used was due to an at the time scarcity of them in the US Army inventory. More personnel were available for armour crew training than were vehicles available to train on or issue. As a result, the tanks were 'simulated'.
Not sure I like Australia doing the thing for reasons of cost. With a simulation, there will be some things that just do not work out the same as with the real equipment. If things are kept the same, I would hope that units that are being readied for deployment are run through a course/ex to re-familiarize them with their actual service kit.
-Cheers
M113's make great SWAT vehicles. Yesterday on the news Phoenix SWAT teams where using the M113 for a Bank robbery incident. Suspects had fully auto AK-47's and other modified light machine guns-.50 cal's.The M113 was modified with tear gas launchers and the whole 9 yards, was pretty wicked. I will try and find some photos.
t68
Well-Known Member
Hi guys
AD do you know what the latest on this is have they got the bugs ironed out yet and started full production yet?
Who much work will be required on the buckets that are going into long term storage?
I read somewhere that the Russians that have there MBT stored still require a lot of maintenance even in long term storage.
I am still a believer that the reserves still should have the capability in service not everyone wants to join the ARA.
Better still give the upgraded ones to the reserve force and possible M2/M3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle to the ARA, it was designed to complement the M1-Abrams.
The Transport requirements of it being longer and heavier it will no longer fit on a Mack 6x6 and length ways only one will go on a semi being the army has only got 40ft trailers to my knowledge ,have you any information on how they are going to get around this problem?
On a side note back in the 60s they put a scorpion turret on top (there is one in Wagga Wagga in the main street) I don’t know how successful this was, have you got any info on how it went?
I do not know if it is feasible today but would it be worth to do with a modern turret and match the firepower of the Auslav, as I can’t really see us getting anything in the near future to replace the M113 with
Regards,
Tom
AD do you know what the latest on this is have they got the bugs ironed out yet and started full production yet?
Who much work will be required on the buckets that are going into long term storage?
I read somewhere that the Russians that have there MBT stored still require a lot of maintenance even in long term storage.
I am still a believer that the reserves still should have the capability in service not everyone wants to join the ARA.
Better still give the upgraded ones to the reserve force and possible M2/M3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle to the ARA, it was designed to complement the M1-Abrams.
The Transport requirements of it being longer and heavier it will no longer fit on a Mack 6x6 and length ways only one will go on a semi being the army has only got 40ft trailers to my knowledge ,have you any information on how they are going to get around this problem?
On a side note back in the 60s they put a scorpion turret on top (there is one in Wagga Wagga in the main street) I don’t know how successful this was, have you got any info on how it went?
I do not know if it is feasible today but would it be worth to do with a modern turret and match the firepower of the Auslav, as I can’t really see us getting anything in the near future to replace the M113 with
Regards,
Tom
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The M113AS3/4 upgrade has entered full rate production as of December 07 and 1 Brigade had received 18 vehicles so far to date, last I heard.
The project is still to deliver a total of 350 vehicles and these will go entirely to 1 Brigade, plus the trade training schools and the school of Armour.
The M113 capability is being removed entirely from the reserve armoured units within the Australian Army. These units are now tasked to perform a light reconnaisance role and have been equipped with the RSV (recon/surveillance vehicle) variant of the Land Rover vehicle (same vehicle as used by special forces and NORFORCE units).
You won't see the reserves operating a dedicated armoured vehicle capability for a long time if ever. I explained it in the Australian Army thread the other day, but basically using a tracked armoured vehicle in a reserve unit means the unit spends the majority of it's time maintaining it's vehicles and qualifying on using the vehicle, rather than training the soldiers in their individual skills and conducting "collective" training activities for the unit as a whole.
Hence the switch to a vehicle that is far easier (and far cheaper!) to maintain and can conduct the roles the units were performing previously anyway. Plus these vehicles don't require "low-loaders" to deploy to an exercise area, possessing an excellent "self deployable" capability.
For instance 2/14 in Brisbane used to have to deploy to the Wide Bay Training Area (WBTA - near Gympie) about 2.5 hours drive by car north of Brisbane. That doesn't sound like too far, but transporting a Regiments worth of vehicles, (80 or so) is difficult to organise. WBTA was the CLOSEST training area that we could deploy to, to actually use the vehicles as they are intended.
A weekend training activity consisted of arriving at the Regiment and parading at 6.00pm. The vehicles and stores etc would then be loaded, the troops get on the buses by 7.30pm - 8.00pm. We'd then drive to WBTA and arrive by 10.30pm - 11.00pm assuming good traffic conditions.
The vehicles would then be unloaded made ready and the troops organised and would deploy into their AO for the exercise. You'd work until 1.00am or 2.00am before harboring up. In effect you'd get 1-2 hours on the first "day" to actually "train".
Then you'd be up at 4.30am - 5.00am depending on sunrise, conduct morning routine and the training activities for the day would commence. We would then work all day and harbour up at 1.00am or 2.00am again that night, or work until the late afternoon, harbour up for 3-4 hours, get some sleep and then work all night through to 5.00am or so the next morning. Then we would be required to deploy back to the "Base Camp" work on the vehicles and prepare them for transporting back to Brisbane.
We'd finish this by midday, the vehicles would be loaded and transported back to Brisbane. We'd be bussed back, most of us sleeping and we'd arrive back in Brisbane by 2.30pm to 3.00pm. Then the vehicles would be put away, along with stores, weapons cleaned etc for a final parade at 4.00pm - 4.30pm before being dismissed.
As you can see, an entire weekend which would in effect be "3 full days" would result in about 18-20hrs in total training time that we could actually undertake.
A Landrover based capability would allow for significantly greater training time in the same situation...
In future though under Project Overlander there is a requirement for a new "light armoured" recon/surveillance vehicle that hasn't gone to tender yet as I udnerstand. Something like the Eagle IV vehicle is expected for this project and I imagine that these vehicles will re-equip the reserve armoured units in years to come giving them a suitable vehicle for their new role.
Regards
AD
I know this is a bit
fftopic but how much training time would a Reserve Infantry unit get into the 3 days?