BAE says in talks with M'bishi Heavy on Typhoon deal

[jaffo4011]

interesting development here,looks like the japanese are taking the typhoon seriously............lets see how this pans out....

Research is in talks with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (MHI) (7011.T: Quote, Profile, Research about possibly licensing it to manufacture the Eurofighter Typhoon, an executive of Europe's top military contractor said on Thursday.

"At the moment our main discussion is with MHI, and they have demonstrably the most significant fighter aircraft capability of the Japanese industry team," Nigel Whitehead, group managing director at BAE, told Reuters in an interview.

"But the relationship will not necessarily be limited to MHI."


Mitsubishi Heavy already makes F-15J fighters under a license agreement with Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Patriot missiles with Raytheon Co. (RTN.N: Quote, Profile, Research and vertical launching systems with Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research, but it has no big projects with BAE.

Japan has been a tough market for non-U.S. contractors such as BAE because U.S. rivals such as Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research and Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research have a strong grip on the market. But Japan has said it would consider buying the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is built by a consortium headed by BAE, as it plans to start replacing its fleet of 60 F-4 fighters as well as training aircraft in the next couple of years.

Any BAE deal with MHI would be contingent on the government choosing the Eurofighter.

 

[harryriedl]

very interesting indeed wonder if their will be a US response to BAE moving on the japan market. also the likelihood of a typhoon deal has moved a step closer

 

[Tasman]

interesting development here,looks like the japanese are taking the typhoon seriously............lets see how this pans out....

Research is in talks with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. (MHI) (7011.T: Quote, Profile, Research about possibly licensing it to manufacture the Eurofighter Typhoon, an executive of Europe's top military contractor said on Thursday.

"At the moment our main discussion is with MHI, and they have demonstrably the most significant fighter aircraft capability of the Japanese industry team," Nigel Whitehead, group managing director at BAE, told Reuters in an interview.

"But the relationship will not necessarily be limited to MHI."


Mitsubishi Heavy already makes F-15J fighters under a license agreement with Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Patriot missiles with Raytheon Co. (RTN.N: Quote, Profile, Research and vertical launching systems with Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research, but it has no big projects with BAE.

Japan has been a tough market for non-U.S. contractors such as BAE because U.S. rivals such as Boeing Co. (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research and Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research have a strong grip on the market. But Japan has said it would consider buying the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is built by a consortium headed by BAE, as it plans to start replacing its fleet of 60 F-4 fighters as well as training aircraft in the next couple of years.

Any BAE deal with MHI would be contingent on the government choosing the Eurofighter.

I still see BAE as the underdogs as I think Japan is more likely to stay with a US design but this move certainly does indicate that the decision to do so is not a forgone conclusion. It would be good to see a strong competition for the Japanese order, particularly if it comes to a fly off between US types and the Typhoon.

Cheers

 

[Systems Adict]

Interesting story !

Probably just what BAE needs. Getting a toe in the Asian market place like this would help them with other countries that they've been lobbying for the last few years.

It may make the idea more "acceptable", as the Typhoon would be made locally & could be "repaired" locally, possibly cutting overall costs.

Systems Adict

 

[gf0012-aust]

I still see BAE as the underdogs as I think Japan is more likely to stay with a US design but this move certainly does indicate that the decision to do so is not a forgone conclusion. It would be good to see a strong competition for the Japanese order, particularly if it comes to a fly off between US types and the Typhoon.

Cheers

At a "gordon gecko" level, it may actually trigger a US reciprocal deal with updated F-15's.

It would certainly demonstrate a sea change in procurement behaviour if they run with Typhoon....

 

[Tasman]

At a "gordon gecko" level, it may actually trigger a US reciprocal deal with updated F-15's.

It would certainly demonstrate a sea change in procurement behaviour if they run with Typhoon....

Yes, I can see that Japanese interest in the Typhoon may well result in an improved offering from the US. I agree that selection of a non US type would certainly be a 'sea change' for Japan.

Cheers

 

[swerve]

Yes, I can see that Japanese interest in the Typhoon may well result in an improved offering from the US. I agree that selection of a non US type would certainly be a 'sea change' for Japan.

Cheers

One point not previously mentioned is that it would require Japan to grant a military equipment export licence waiver for at least one of the Eurofighter consortium countries, on the lines of the one in place for the USA. I can imagine MHI & some European countries seeing that as an opportunity for other deals, perhaps involving Japanese non-lethal equipment (P-X airframe, anyone?) with European mission systems.

 

[W800i]

An interesting if not unsurprising development that the Japanese are talking to the Europeans about their future fighter requirements. As several subsequent posters have pointed out, this would no doubt be for competitive reasons in order to solicit the best possible outcome for the JASDF.

Of course what and how that outcome is measured is best known by the Japanese, but I think it is still a smart way to go and as GF0012 points out, will no doubt put some pressure on the Americans. Pressure is a good thing when the price tag is measured in billions of dollars or in this case yen.

It has been widely reported that the Japanese have formerly approached the Americans about the Raptor and no doubt the JSF. In a nutshell we'll see how serious the Americans are regarding their export ban for the Raptor and probably the more sensitive USAF JSF version if the Japanese look like they are going to spend their money in Europe instead. I am yet to be convinced that export JSF models will be stock standard to US spec models. I of course am willing to be stood corrected by the professionals on this forum if they can point out to me clear and concise statements stating as much! The Japanese could also make the same assumption re the Raptor if they have to pay for the F-22 to be de sensitised if that is the only way the Americans will release it to them. Some recent Aegis related security breaches would no doubt be causing nervousness in the US realting to the release of Raptor data to the Japanese.

In this context the Japanese may consider that if they cant have the very best that the Americans have than why not an aircraft that might be inferior to the best US systems but can be manufactured in Japan and endlessly tinkered with by their scientific boffins with the full blessings of Eurofighter. I am of course assuming that the Europeans will give full software and data access to the Eurofighter whereas the Americans would obviously be at the very least unwilling to do the same for the Raptor. I am open to correction and advisement re this point- please help forum members??

My own read is that the chance of a Raptor sale would be 50/50 at best to the Japanese. Problems and issues to be worked through are numerous and well above my level of understanding.

The lesson here from my point of view is that even if the Japanese end up flying the JSF they have at least followed a competitive bid process/ competition and will no doubt extract many concessions from the Americans to guarantee a US fighter flying in the JASDF. To my knowledge the Japanese are not signatories to the JSF SDD phase but unsurprisingly no statements from the US that I have been able to find have so far stated that they will be excluded from purchasing it or how any JASDF purchase will effect the supply of componentry.

Early days of course but a significant Japanese buy of JSF may have interesting effects on the supply of components to JASDF aircraft particularly if the Japanese are able to negotiate a deal for local Japanese suppliers outside of the formal JSF partners?

Can anyone advise how a Japanese purchase of the JSF would effect the current founding JSF members component suppliers?

 

[contedicavour]

Very interesting. From all of this I understand it is the UK who is lead country for Typhoon consortium in this part of the world ? Alenia-Finmeccanica is also very active in Tokyo leveraging recent successes on Agusta EH101 deals. Even our PM met with the Japanese government recently to talk about collaboration in aerospace industry.

The one question I have is what sort of Typhoon would the Japanese procure (would it include advanced air to ground features that are in theory incompatible with the Japanese constitution ?) and to what extent would MHI customise it with Japanese electronics and equipment.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Very interesting. From all of this I understand it is the UK who is lead country for Typhoon consortium in this part of the world ? Alenia-Finmeccanica is also very active in Tokyo leveraging recent successes on Agusta EH101 deals. Even our PM met with the Japanese government recently to talk about collaboration in aerospace industry.

The one question I have is what sort of Typhoon would the Japanese procure (would it include advanced air to ground features that are in theory incompatible with the Japanese constitution ?) and to what extent would MHI customise it with Japanese electronics and equipment.

cheers

i imaging that it would inculed an advanced AESA radar would be a defining feature

 

[swerve]

...
The one question I have is what sort of Typhoon would the Japanese procure (would it include advanced air to ground features that are in theory incompatible with the Japanese constitution ?) ...

cheers

LGBs, & anti-ship missiles with some land attack capability don't seem to be thought incompatible with the constitution, since Japan already has both. Actually, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - in the Japanese constitution about particular types of weapons. See -

http://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/etc/c01.html

Chapter II is the relevant one.

 

[Izzy1]

Mentioned this on here before, but given Japan's sensitive views on defence they officially term their Laser Guided Munitions as "Anti-Landing Craft" weapons.

In regards to Typhoon and the JASDF, I have to agree with earlier posts. Talking to BAE will probably lead to an improved US offer - Strike Eagle or maybe even Raptor. I just can't see them going European after so long buying top US kit.

 

[perfectgeneral]

If Japan built 100+ Typhoon to their adapted design and Saudi Arabia churns out 100+ on their own assembly line, is there enough demand to justify this level of capacity?

 

[swerve]

If Japan built 100+ Typhoon to their adapted design and Saudi Arabia churns out 100+ on their own assembly line, is there enough demand to justify this level of capacity?

What do you mean? Surely that's a question for the Saudis & Japanese - do they think the quantities they're buying (or potentially buying, in the case of Japan) justify their own assembly line? These are cases of a customer deciding to buy, then setting up their own line: the capacity is in response to the demand.

 

[perfectgeneral]

Capacity

It's just 100 units doesn't seem enough to open a production line for. How many F-15 based aircraft did Mitsubishi churn out?

 

[swerve]

It's just 100 units doesn't seem enough to open a production line for. How many F-15 based aircraft did Mitsubishi churn out?

About twice that. But the original F-15 order was much smaller than the eventual total.