Iranian mini-subs
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They can be extremelly dangerous.
Back in 99' , just before the serbian bombing campaign started, an exYU p.911 class midget sub was on a patrol just outside the territorial watters. While on station, they almost collided with a NATO SSN, which was completely unaware of them being there. They listend to the sub passing from a distance of less then 200 meters, and then rushed home to tell the story.
Another good example of how quiet and dangerous mini subs are... When they tested the P.911 initially, it was found that it could enter the Yu navy harbour in Lora completely undetected, although the whole place was bugged with
extremely sensitive hydrophones used to spot divers in the watter.
Mind you, there were plans for a bigger and more sub-hunter oriented P.911, with 4 torpedoes, which were never completed due to the exYU breakup.
(The Croatian P.911 sub is modified with a hull plug and a diesel generator, extending its range)
So if Iranians have something similar in their inventory, I'd say they do pose a significant threat.
Back in 99' , just before the serbian bombing campaign started, an exYU p.911 class midget sub was on a patrol just outside the territorial watters. While on station, they almost collided with a NATO SSN, which was completely unaware of them being there. They listend to the sub passing from a distance of less then 200 meters, and then rushed home to tell the story.
Another good example of how quiet and dangerous mini subs are... When they tested the P.911 initially, it was found that it could enter the Yu navy harbour in Lora completely undetected, although the whole place was bugged with
extremely sensitive hydrophones used to spot divers in the watter.
Mind you, there were plans for a bigger and more sub-hunter oriented P.911, with 4 torpedoes, which were never completed due to the exYU breakup.
(The Croatian P.911 sub is modified with a hull plug and a diesel generator, extending its range)
So if Iranians have something similar in their inventory, I'd say they do pose a significant threat.
N.Koreans also penetrated ROK waters with them, and their mini-subs were only detected/captured after the fact.
http://www.strange-mecha.com/ship/M-Sub/N-Korea01.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/anti-sof.htm
http://www.strange-mecha.com/ship/M-Sub/N-Korea01.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/eprint/anti-sof.htm
There are at least 3 countries with subs on station if the Gulf as part of the blockade and policing actions.
Lets assume the Iranians aren't thinking straight and decide that a sub delivered strike is in their short term strategic interest. How long do you think that they would last?
Mini subs don't have endurance, and that fundamentally limits their response and prosecution options. It also means that in their area of home porting, that the likely area of ops is not ISR "benign".
I'd be betting that the moment that anyone on overwatch in that area detected anything untoward, that the minisub would be finished - and that the next 48 hrs would see the quiet but deliberate prosecution of any other remaining assets and their facilities.
I wouldn't underestimate mini-subs.
I don't know the quality and specifications of Iranian mini-subs, but Yugoslavian mini subs were NEVER, and I mean NEVER detected, not by a foreign force, not by domestical Yu forces in exercises.
There's a story about a Kotor class frigate trying to detect a p.911 class boat in a enclosed box of 2 x 2 nautical miles in an exercise. And you know what? It took them the whole day, going active, passive, but they never found anything.
And as far as the book goes, not a single detection of these assets was ever made. Nada. Zero.
And imagine if that p.911 from the 99' was an improved sub with a 4 torpedoes conversion(50 tons more displacement). I'd guess that there would be one less Trafalgar or Los Angeles sub in USN or RN inventory today.
And that's your "1 billion dollar" SSN sunk with a 15 million euros worth mini sub. Fancy, eh?
A modified p.911 with a 1.3 metre hull plug and a generator extends its range several times.
The sub itself can stay underwatter more then 2 days.
That's not exactly limited. Offcourse, not a match for any SSN or modern SSKs out there, but not shabby at all.
I don't know the quality and specifications of Iranian mini-subs, but Yugoslavian mini subs were NEVER, and I mean NEVER detected, not by a foreign force, not by domestical Yu forces in exercises.
There's a story about a Kotor class frigate trying to detect a p.911 class boat in a enclosed box of 2 x 2 nautical miles in an exercise. And you know what? It took them the whole day, going active, passive, but they never found anything.
And as far as the book goes, not a single detection of these assets was ever made. Nada. Zero.
And imagine if that p.911 from the 99' was an improved sub with a 4 torpedoes conversion(50 tons more displacement). I'd guess that there would be one less Trafalgar or Los Angeles sub in USN or RN inventory today.
And that's your "1 billion dollar" SSN sunk with a 15 million euros worth mini sub. Fancy, eh?
p.911 can do about 80 NM at 7.3 knots(underwatter), more then 100 if you drain the batteries to the end(does a lot damage to the batteries and can be dangerous since the batteries are all that the sub has, as there's no diesel generator), and more then 190 NM with 4 knots underwatter.
A modified p.911 with a 1.3 metre hull plug and a generator extends its range several times.
The sub itself can stay underwatter more then 2 days.
That's not exactly limited. Offcourse, not a match for any SSN or modern SSKs out there, but not shabby at all.
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And when were the Yugoslavs a threat to warrant a response?
There is a vast difference between exercises where operators are bound whats termed "partial prosecution conditions" and a proper event.
and for goodness sake, there is a reason why the larger 21inch torpedoes like ADCAP have to be used against larger subs..
I don't doubt the ability of a mini sub to do its job either, but in area like the gulf where there is no depth and where any planted array will pick up a fish farting? I would not like to be in any sub where there is an active and determined ASW prosecution underway.
They're mini subs, they're not transformers.....
I did a little thing on the iranian mini-subs a few months ago. Gary is right though, this stuff is not as capable as assumed. Its a suicide mission waiting to happen, which means hard to stop initially but ineffective after one event.
Midget
Midget submarines are indeed hard to detect, but they are not reliable technology, rather tin cans with some hardware, and crazy commandos praying not to be detected...
A sensor array, able to detect fish farts or not, can only be effective if the shallow water bathy allows it.
Midgets are only scare weapons, even if USN is investing so much into this concept.
Midget submarines are indeed hard to detect, but they are not reliable technology, rather tin cans with some hardware, and crazy commandos praying not to be detected...
A sensor array, able to detect fish farts or not, can only be effective if the shallow water bathy allows it.
Midgets are only scare weapons, even if USN is investing so much into this concept.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Actually, sea bed arrays does in fact detect fish farts. At least in the littorals. Much confusion came from this when the Swedes Hunted sov subs in the skærgårds in the '80s, and they figured out what it was when biologists were brought in.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I could be mistaken, but I do not believe the USN is investing much into mini-sub R&D. This I believe is due to the limits imposed by the size of a mini-sub. It would not have the range/persistance of existing SSNs, and given the small size and low displacement, would not be able to make as much use of USN sonar and sig management developments.
The countries that come to mind off the top of my head for current mini-sub development are North Korea, Iran and Colombia (specifically some of the drug cartels).
And this post begs the question, what is the sound of a fish farting?Actually, sea bed arrays does in fact detect fish farts. At least in the littorals. Much confusion came from this when the Swedes Hunted sov subs in the skærgårds in the '80s, and they figured out what it was when biologists were brought in.
Normally I would not be quite so interested, but does someone have an audio clip/file they could post? It is sort of one of those things where hearing is believing.
-Cheers
ASDS is technically a midget submarine.
Yugoslavia also developed a mini-sub class (Una). There's also a company (Cosmos) in Italy that develops mini-subs, and Pakistan has used their designs for its indigenous MX-110 class. South Korea operates a class from the Cosmos series as well (locally built SX-756 Dolphin). Sweden (Kockums, now German TKMS) has developed the Sea Dagger series. The Indian Navy is tendering out a contract for four new mini submarines as commando delivery vehicles with attack capability right now.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
That is what happens when one goes by ones memory without doing a little checking first. Although when I was referring to mini-subs, I did not really have in mind subs like the Remora DSRV. I was aware of the Italian and Yugoslavian mini-subs, but do not recall running across any examples that are in service though.
-Cheers
Iirc (now me from memory) Croatia and Montenegro each operate one Una.
I am surprised that these are not used more often, in nations like Iraqi. They would be like a car bomb if they got close enough to a American sub.
nfloorl: But yes, this concept has it's +-. More minuses than plus.
SuperSixOne
New Member
Car bomb? Hardly. Explosions underwater yield far less power than those on the surface due to the weight of the water (Obviously). A midget sub wouldn't be able to catch up to a submerged SSN let alone find it and track it in the first place.
That is true considering most mini-submarines of 3rd world nations usually have increadibly terrible sonar systems, in fact many don't have a sonar at all.
Iran's mini-sub fleet would be a lot more effective if Iran had an underwater surveillance system. They could not only detect enemies but they could also detect targets and then send out their mini-subs to attack. This would make up somewhat for their sonar which is likely to be awful.