Russians have started to build the PAK FA

[RubiconNZ]

Thats why you shouldn't trust Wiki. It was a Hornet.

"This was quickly achieved, and for the duration of the war, Coalition aircraft could operate largely unchallenged. Despite Iraq’s better-than-expected anti-aircraft capabilities, only one coalition aircraft, an FA-18 flown by LCDR Scott Speicher, was lost in the opening day of the war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_war

Well one part got it right

 

[Rossiman]

All this talk about Russian fighters being superior! Can you tell me of a single engagement / conflict / war since WWII where Russian fighters have had the edge over Western fighters? I can’t think of a single encounter.

Arab – Israeli conflict – NO
Korean War - NO
Vietnam War - NO
Gulf War I & II – NO
Balkans conflict - NO

Secondly if Russian fighters are so good why is it we are seeing more and more former Eastern Block countries seeking to buy Western designs (Gripen, Typhoon)?

Exactly it's all in there minds.

 

[XaNDeR]

US lost their fair share of aircraft during Vietnam and Korean war , Id expect someone like rick to know that already , and I didn't realize Russians fought the Gulf war and Balkan conflict lol.
With that beeing said US pilots had a amazing training during cold war and there is no question they were better trained , but I don't agree with the post above.

 

[riksavage]

My comments were not specific to individual losses, more aimed at the bigger picture where we have witnessed airforces equiped with Western technology Vs. Russian technology. For this reason I stand by my statement.

The use of 'single engagement' was a poor choice of words.

 

[funtz]

My comments were not specific to individual losses, more aimed at the bigger picture where we have witnessed air forces equipped with Western technology Vs. Russian technology. For this reason I stand by my statement.

The use of 'single engagement' was a poor choice of words.

What has combat got to do anything with this?
There are other factors, (such as numbers, training, force multipliers, weapons, electronic warfare etc. etc.) to consider in a combat.

The point is they have been involved in the so called generations of combat jet manufacturing and have come out with decent products that suited the doctrine of the soviets Air Force.

 

[Preceptor]

What has combat got to do anything with this?
There are other factors, (such as numbers, training, force multipliers, weapons, electronic warfare etc. etc.) to consider in a combat.

The point is they have been involved in the so called generations of combat jet manufacturing and have come out with decent products that suited the doctrine of the soviets Air Force.

I believe what was referred was actual combat performance determining what aircraft or aircraft origin was "best".

I would strongly urge such comparisons to cease and desist. As has been observed before, there is an underwhelming amount of factual (accurate as opposed to publicly declared or released) information regarding air platform performance. Also, such claims often overstate the level of importance the platform plays in air combat and discounts other factors that make up the rest of the system, like experience, training, situational awareness, etc.

If the discussion to be returned to that of the PAK-FA and what is known, believed or wondering about it that would be to the good. If on the other hand the discussion continues in the vein of "my country's X is better than your country's y" then this thread will be closed, as nationalism and egocentric claims have no place here.

-Preceptor

 

[funtz]

The Hindu
Wednesday, Nov 21, 2007

An ambitious Russia-India fighter plane project

Yury Zaitsev

On November 15, officials of Russia’s Sukhoi Military Aviation Complex and representatives of the Indian Defence Ministry held a round of talks on developing a fifth-generation fighter.

On October 18, President Vladimir Putin told a news conference that Moscow would develop such warplanes by 2015. Earlier, First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov had said a prototype fifth-generation fighter would perform its maiden flight in 2009, and that serial production would start in early 2010. But most experts were not so optimistic and predicted that the first warplane in this category would not appear before 2012-2014 — which was more in line with Mr. Putin’s statement.

Russia has so far failed to master production of the purely experimental Su-37, built by Sukhoi at its own expense. But the layout of the aircraft makes it possible to streamline various engineering solutions under the Advanced Tactical Aircraft (PAK FA) programme.

Expensive project

The U.S. and Europe spent over $20 billion on the F-35 JSF programme. Therefore, experts believe Russia should team up with a foreign partner to develop a fifth-generation fighter. It will take $600 million to $800 million to design the engine, the most expensive element, and $1.5 billion to launch serial production.

Russia and India began negotiations on the joint fifth-generation fighter programme in 2003. New Delhi insisted that the new aircraft be developed from scratch. Moscow was not very happy about this because it implied another expensive project. There have been some outstanding achievements, but bilateral military-technical cooperation has been marked by major setbacks and even conflicts. And this explains why it took India so long to get involved in the new fighter programme.

The fifth-generation fighter must retain in-flight stability and control at 90-degree-plus angles of attack. The U.S., which faced similar problems, eventually preferred Stealth characteristics and supersonic cruise speeds to super-agility.

This Russian plane features AL-37-FU engines with round rotatable nozzles and can attain supersonic cruise speeds. Its combat efficiency has been enhanced because the Su-27 can bank sharply at high angular speeds and along short trajectories in every plane.

In addition, the fifth-generation fighter will be fitted with advanced avionics, long-range weapons and other radio-electronic equipment to hit any conceivable target. The Indian electronics industry will provide an invaluable contribution to developing automated electronic counter-measures (ECM) systems, secure data-exchange networks and fire-control systems for long-range tactical missions. — RIA Novosti

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112156131300.htm


So now Mr. Putin is quoting a 2015 deadline.

It will be interesting to follow the development of this aircraft

Judging by other recent projects i can see a lot of doomsday news clips quoting disasters.

 

[pankaj]

I believe what was referred was actual combat performance determining what aircraft or aircraft origin was "best".

I would strongly urge such comparisons to cease and desist. As has been observed before, there is an underwhelming amount of factual (accurate as opposed to publicly declared or released) information regarding air platform performance. Also, such claims often overstate the level of importance the platform plays in air combat and discounts other factors that make up the rest of the system, like experience, training, situational awareness, etc.

If the discussion to be returned to that of the PAK-FA and what is known, believed or wondering about it that would be to the good. If on the other hand the discussion continues in the vein of "my country's X is better than your country's y" then this thread will be closed, as nationalism and egocentric claims have no place here.

-Preceptor

Good point Preceptor .

Guys I have joined this forum recently and this is my first post . Just to clarify i have been visiting this forum for quite some time but always as a guest .

I am quite curious about the current state of PAK-FA project . I believe the Indians have agreed to participate in this project.The level of participation is open to question . But i do believe that the indians will be able to contribute handsomely in the software component part.

One thing is for sure any fighter that is developed from now on will have to match against the standard set by F-22 and that will be quite something to achieve . I have always admired the Russians for their basic works in the field of Aerodynamics and the Americans and to a certain extent the Europeans in the field of Avionics.

 

[nevidimka]

I have a question. Seeing that its a general perception that the Russians would not compromise manouvrebility for stealth, would they n the indians work on Active Radar Cancellation to improve stealth? Will they try to find an alternative way to fool the radar to achive stealth? Also How good is ARC agsint AESA radar's? n how is the french experience in using them?

The russians surely can make use of Indian's big electronics industry to work on the ARC.

 

[alexsa]

2. Mig-15 Fagot- was many in ways superior to its main rival the F-86 Sabre, its poor combat record against the F-86 was do to ecxellent training and tactics of Americans. As well as poor training amongest Chinese and North Korean Pilots.The better trained and more experienced Russian's did much better against the Americans.

If you are going to make this claimt hen you also ahve to recognise that this aircraft owes much of its ability to the fact the British socialist government in a fit of blind optimisim gave their allies the engine design and a few samples

 

[Izzy1]

2. Mig-15 Fagot- was many in ways superior to its main rival the F-86 Sabre, its poor combat record against the F-86 was do to ecxellent training and tactics of Americans. As well as poor training amongest Chinese and North Korean Pilots.The better trained and more experienced Russian's did much better against the Americans.

To be fair Lancer1978, the radar guided gunsight of the F-86 surely played a part?

The inexperienced crews mithin the Mig-15s played another.

 

[locutus]

More Gas

For over 15 years the US would send up the Sr-71 and break the record every time the Soviets won it. It demonstrated that each time they won they were holding back the capability of the aircraft

I recall reading in a book about the SR-71 an answer the commander at Beale AFB gave when asked what would happen should anyone break the records held by the Blackbird. His response was "We would take one up and step down on the gas a little harder."

These two comments make you wonder just how fast and how high the SR-71 could fly?

 

[dh19440113]

Absolute Rubbish. The Mig31's were never used to intercept SR-71's - they didn't exist then. The SR-71's were under congressional review in the early 70's. The Mig31 wasn't operational until 1979.

1 SR-71 intecepted by 6 mig-31 on june 3, 1986 over barent sea. Get your facts straight.
Sr-71 didn't totally retire when foxhound came into service. They were still flying.

Admin: Editing your post after a response is a bit cute - especially when your response has nothing to do with the question.

Nobody needs a shopping list of pretend capability and irrelevant comparisons to see that you're not reading the specific claims made.

Respond to the actual claims rather than post irrelevant and unrelated datum not even remotely related to the period discussed

Read the rules about whats acceptable for posting emoticons - this isn't a kids forum.

 

[RubiconNZ]

1 SR-71 intecepted by 6 mig-31 on june 3, 1986 over barent sea. Get your facts straight. Sr-71 didn't totally retire when foxhound came into service. They were still flying. :mock

Why don't you learn how to read before posting some random bull and insulting a respected member and moderator of the forum. GF stated the US discontinued Soviet Ferret missions, not all missions only that specific type, the idea of the SR-71 totally retiring was invented in your head, so you get it right.

 

[dh19440113]

Absolute Rubbish. The Mig31's were never used to intercept SR-71's - they didn't exist then. The SR-71's were under congressional review in the early 70's. The Mig31 wasn't operational until 1979.

It was never intercepted at altitude. The SR-71 had a 20,000ft ceiling advantage over the Mig31, and it never encountered Mig31's as it had been pulled for use over Vietnam - Ferret missions over Russia were done by satellites and had been done so some 5 years before the 31 was even operational

Be that as it may the US was still running ferrets right through to the late 70's. Over 90% of their recorded flight time was at Mach 3 sustained. The Mig25's and 31's could not and still cannot sustain mach3 as their engines cannot run protracted mach 3 flight.

In all the time that the A-12's and SR-71's did ferret runs, the soviets tried over 3000 missile intercepts - not one got close, even when they tried to volley the shots.

The reason why SR-71' were pulled was because Satellite mapping was far more robust, covered far more area in the same pass, and was immune to intercept. It was cheaper to run satellites that covered over 400% more area than to run a short squadron of SR-71's.

Satelite is the most valunerable asset of the us military, they can be intercepted if china or russia so wishes.

The mig-31 was used, and did sucessfully intercept sr-71.

I don't have a problem with my response, since rubbish isn't very kind to begin with.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Satelite is the most valunerable asset of the us military, they can be intercepted if china or russia so wishes.

The mig-31 was used, and did sucessfully intercept sr-71.

I don't have a problem with my response, since rubbish isn't very kind to begin with.

Make the effort to read before responding.

1) The Sr-71 was never intercepted on ferret missions over Russia

2) The Barents Sea is NOT Russia.

3) Ah yes, both Russia and China have made serious attempts to kill US deep space satellites.

Please tell me which ASAT system that Russia demonstrated could do an anti Eyeball or Keyhole Satellite killing in that Cold War period?

Please tell me what Chinese fantasy system is able to undertake anti Eyeball or Keyhole missions now let alone during the Cold War?

Don't use the Chinese own goal LEO shot as an example either, as even the most enthusiastic pro Chinese poster couldn't use that as an example in this debate.

As for your modified post (ie added after your initial response)

Sr-71 didn't totally retire when foxhound came into service. They were still flying.

Make the effort to read and comprehend the post before responding. Sr-71's were pulled from running ferret missions over Russia 5 years before the Foxhound was deployed (and even existed). Note the structure of the statement.