Russians have started to build the PAK FA
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The article allso speaks about that the plane will take his first flight at the and of 2008 and it will be delivered to Russian Air Force in 2012. Besides, Russian deffence minister Sergey Ivanow, earlier said that all the pictures and schemes that are posted in internet are only the enthusiast works and are complitely wrong. How the PAK FA really looks like today is a top secret but it is quite clearly that it will not be similar to F-22 neither to any other western fighter. As known, the Suckhoi's resumed the testing of Su-47 Berkut, so thit tells about, that PAK FA can have a negative wing sweep
Lancer1978
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I have a feeling that the Sukhoi PAK FA will inherit some of the Flanker/Berket family looks. Whatever the final PAK FA looks like, I'am sure that it will best fighter on earth. Unlike the F-22, count on it being export widely to nations such as Algeria, China, India, Indonesia, Iran, Libya,Syria, Venezuela and Vietnam.
thank you
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I have the same feeling. Berkut is a beautifull plane and it might be the first prototype of PAK FA. It even has a compartment for weapon in difference to other experimental planes. And about the terms... Raptor was delivered to USAF in 2004 and PAK FA will be deliwered only in 2012. We can see the 8 year split, but it will be good to recollect that F-15 service started in 1975 and Su-27 only in 1982. And even now the program of Su-27 mods is actual in difference the best F-15 mod is the F-15E from 1986. Before the PAK FA will enter the operation, Russia will get some of the most sophisticaned and powerfull version of Flanker - Su-27BM. And it will be also exported as Su-35BM.
Becides India going to take participation in financing the works on PAK FA
Becides India going to take participation in financing the works on PAK FA
Lancer1978
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I have the same feeling. Berkut is a beautifull plane and it might be the first prototype of PAK FA. It even has a compartment for weapon in difference to other experimental planes. And about the terms... Raptor was delivered to USAF in 2004 and PAK FA will be deliwered only in 2012. We can see the 8 year split, but it will be good to recollect that F-15 service started in 1975 and Su-27 only in 1982. And even now the program of Su-27 mods is actual in difference the best F-15 mod is the F-15E from 1986. Before the PAK FA will enter the operation, Russia will get some of the most sophisticaned and powerfull version of Flanker - Su-27BM. And it will be also exported as Su-35BM.
Becides India going to take participation in financing the works on PAK FA
Yes, well keep in mind that Su-27 was designed to defeat the F-15, and is indeed superior to F-15. I don't believe the F-22 is good as is claimed; my opinion being thats its way over priced and could be beaten by a well flown Su-30/35, Mig-35, JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Refale and maybe even a J-10. The PAK FA will be so dominate that only another PAK FA that will have a reasonable chance against it! The Russian bear is waking up and he is pissed!
Scorpion82
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What the heck are you talking about? First flight of the PAK FA will be about 2012 according latest information. This seems to be reasoned by problems with the engines. Older sources suggested 2009 and the original plan opted for a first flight in 2006. I think it should be possible to get the PAK FA in the air by 2009, but a definite configured aircraft might not fly before 2012. Forget about the 2012-2015 entry into service. You might see few airframes being delivered by ~2015 for evaluation, but it will take several more years before the aircraft will be operational and combat ready.
Resuming tests with the Su-47 suggests nothing and the Berkut is nothing else than a technology demonstrator, though it was originally planned as a prototype. Is PAK FA is going to have stealth unlike the Su-47 which just have a reduced RCS.
The Su-27 is not necessarily better than the F-15 and you shouldn't forget about latest upgrades for the F-15 as well.
Resuming tests with the Su-47 suggests nothing and the Berkut is nothing else than a technology demonstrator, though it was originally planned as a prototype. Is PAK FA is going to have stealth unlike the Su-47 which just have a reduced RCS.
The Su-27 is not necessarily better than the F-15 and you shouldn't forget about latest upgrades for the F-15 as well.
First flight will be in 2008 , it was confirmed by Ivanov.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
One must hope for Ivanovs credibility that it does fly in 2008. We will know a year from now.
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Indian AF Faults Fighter Pact With Russia
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
NEW DELHI — Senior Indian Air Force officials say they are finding holes in the agreement their government signed Oct. 18 with Russia for joint production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.
The Air Force prefers to get involved in the project from the beginning of the design stage, but the Russians say the design of the proposed fifth-generation aircraft is frozen, Air Force sources said.
Being involved from the start would allow the Air Force to introduce its own requirements into the design process and to become familiar with the design of the aircraft they propose to fly, a senior service official said.
Another Air Force official agreed, noting that so far, even the service’s Staff Qualitative Requirements have not been finalized.
In addition, the Air Force says India should not contribute more than $2 billion to the joint project, but the proposed deal calls for an Indian contribution of about $5 billion — half of the estimated $10 billion cost, according to Air Force officials.
No details have yet been released as to how many aircraft would be built for India and Russia through the agreement.
A diplomat with the Russian Embassy here said the two governments have signed the fifth-generation fighter agreement, but Indian state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau have yet to sign.
The first prototype of the aircraft is projected to be test-flown by 2015, the diplomat said.
“We are willing to participate in the fifth-generation aircraft, but we will invest only $2 billion on our side in the development of the fighter,” a senior HAL official said.
India and Russia signed the intergovernmental agreement to jointly develop and produce the futuristic, multirole stealth fighter, based on Sukhoi’s super-secret PAK-FA project, in Moscow on Oct. 18.
Indian Air Force officials said the aircraft will be a variant of the T-50 aircraft from Sukhoi.
However, the Air Force has already committed about $6 billion to acquire the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI and should not buy more than one type of Sukhoi aircraft, said Surya Pal Singh, a retired Air Force commodore. India is buying 40 Su-30 MKIs, and HAL will build another 140 under license in India.
India also was offered a variant of the MiG aircraft for the fifth-generation fighter project. It is still not clear how Sukhoi was selected.
The Russians, for lack of funds, have wanted to collaborate with India on the fifth-generation aircraft. The fighter will be flown by both the Russian and Indian Air Forces.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3149759&C=asiapac
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Indian AF Faults Fighter Pact With Russia
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
NEW DELHI — Senior Indian Air Force officials say they are finding holes in the agreement their government signed Oct. 18 with Russia for joint production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.
The Air Force prefers to get involved in the project from the beginning of the design stage, but the Russians say the design of the proposed fifth-generation aircraft is frozen, Air Force sources said.
Being involved from the start would allow the Air Force to introduce its own requirements into the design process and to become familiar with the design of the aircraft they propose to fly, a senior service official said.
Another Air Force official agreed, noting that so far, even the service’s Staff Qualitative Requirements have not been finalized.
In addition, the Air Force says India should not contribute more than $2 billion to the joint project, but the proposed deal calls for an Indian contribution of about $5 billion — half of the estimated $10 billion cost, according to Air Force officials.
No details have yet been released as to how many aircraft would be built for India and Russia through the agreement.
A diplomat with the Russian Embassy here said the two governments have signed the fifth-generation fighter agreement, but Indian state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau have yet to sign.
The first prototype of the aircraft is projected to be test-flown by 2015, the diplomat said.
“We are willing to participate in the fifth-generation aircraft, but we will invest only $2 billion on our side in the development of the fighter,” a senior HAL official said.
India and Russia signed the intergovernmental agreement to jointly develop and produce the futuristic, multirole stealth fighter, based on Sukhoi’s super-secret PAK-FA project, in Moscow on Oct. 18.
Indian Air Force officials said the aircraft will be a variant of the T-50 aircraft from Sukhoi.
However, the Air Force has already committed about $6 billion to acquire the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI and should not buy more than one type of Sukhoi aircraft, said Surya Pal Singh, a retired Air Force commodore. India is buying 40 Su-30 MKIs, and HAL will build another 140 under license in India.
India also was offered a variant of the MiG aircraft for the fifth-generation fighter project. It is still not clear how Sukhoi was selected.
The Russians, for lack of funds, have wanted to collaborate with India on the fifth-generation aircraft. The fighter will be flown by both the Russian and Indian Air Forces.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3149759&C=asiapac
It is funny how the Indian Airforce is finding faults with an agreement that has not even been worked out yet, he he, me think the writer jumped the gun, he should have avoided all of the ironical statements.
According to the stated sources in that article the aircraft for the Indian airforce will be a variant of the T-50, a variant of an aircraft yet to be developed
, nice futuristic thinking it seems.Judging by the way military projects world over seem to suffer time and cost overruns, a 2008 deadline with time delays leading up to 2012-2015 will not be too difficult to achieve
.Grand Danois
Entertainer
My perspective too.Judging by the way military projects world over seem to suffer time and cost overruns, a 2008 deadline with time delays leading up to 2012-2015 will not be too difficult to achieve
Thinking of gestation periods of various mil projects the world over coupled with my impression that it is still very early days in the PAK-FA program; i.e. concepts, loose designs, validation of isolated technologies. I wonder why Ivanov puts his name to the date 2008.Could it be that the Russians will pull asurprise.
Edit: Good idea to freeze the design btw.
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Even a more relaxin 2017 deadline is nice, considering that there is a market the russian industry can target (not exactly high end considering the one the F-35 project has), about time altough with India more nations could have been includedto fund the project, a generation gap in the AF will be a issue with many not in the US list of friendly states.I guess the IPR issues would be too complex then, afterall no one like lawyers in the world
India is in the pocket, the fine print to be worked out, reports are in the media that it is being worked out.
I hope India gets a share of the sales pie wheneve this thing hits the international market.
India is in the pocket, the fine print to be worked out, reports are in the media that it is being worked out.
I hope India gets a share of the sales pie wheneve this thing hits the international market.
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Is there a more reliable source of information than the minister of deffence? There are no russian sources that confirm problems with engines. Engine 117S is now testing on Su-35 and will be ready soon. Considering the latest mods of F-15 I think better see the flight of Su-35 and MiG-35 than tell about why F-15 have no chances fighting them.
2 Scorpion82 and why do you think the technology demonstrators are build? That they have renewed testing means that Suckhoi really considers the negative sweep as a thecnology to new fighters.
And ofcource PAK FA will be a Raptorkiller, as the Su-27 was Eaglkiller
2 Scorpion82 and why do you think the technology demonstrators are build? That they have renewed testing means that Suckhoi really considers the negative sweep as a thecnology to new fighters.
And ofcource PAK FA will be a Raptorkiller, as the Su-27 was Eaglkiller
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Forward swept wings are not sympathetic to "stealth" as it is used in popular terms. The benefits of supermaneuverability is diminishing in the future due to helmet mounted sights, lock-on-after-launch, HOBS, etc. There are also structural issues.
PAK-FA is most likely NOT to have a FSW config. Drawbacks are greater than benefits.
PAK-FA is most likely NOT to have a FSW config. Drawbacks are greater than benefits.
Scorpion82
New Member
I suggest you to check the latest related threads. BTW the article 117S of the Su-35 is not the definite engine for the PAK FA. The PAK FAs engine is based on it, but it will incorporate a new core and will be more powerful. I could imagine that the article 117S aka AL-41F1A will be used as interim solution however.
That's nonsense. Fit TVC to the Eagle and it will perform a similar show. TVC alone won't make the Flanker better at all. The F-15 has been further developed over the time as well, just look at the F-15K/SG. It is true that Sukhoi invested more work and time to further develope the Flanker, but it had to do so, because there is still no equivalent to the Raptor. The latest Flanker derivates might be better fighters than the latest F-15, but this doesn't apply to all variants and it's not for sure either due the lack of some hard facts and data.
There is no prove that the Su-27 has become an Eagle killer. It has been designed to counter the F-15 and it is for sure capable of doing so, but it has not been proven at all. And of course the russians will praise the PAK FA as Raptor killer, but if it will become reality is something very different. For the moment we know nothing about the PAK FA.2 Scorpion82 and why do you think the technology demonstrators are build? That they have renewed testing means that Suckhoi really considers the negative sweep as a thecnology to new fighters.
And ofcource PAK FA will be a Raptorkiller, as the Su-27 was Eaglkiller
The Su-47 was planned as a prototype as the MiG MFI was. Both eventually ended up as experimental aircraft as the RuAF had no interest in them and decided to launch a new 5th generation fighter program which became the PAK FA. Restarting flight tests with the Su-47 could mean many things, seeing it as evidence that the PAK FA will have FSW is much speculative however.
Scorpion82
New Member
Yes the F-22 is expensive, but quality has its price. Neither the Americans nor the Europeans can produce that cheap as the Russians.It is necessary to think not ordinary to make another great plane, like Flanker. Ofcource the F-22 is a good plane, but also it is a perfect example of great money overspanding. 100 000 000 for one plane, heh... how can americans sleep at night
I have no doubt that the PAK FA will become a great plane, I just prefer to wait for it rather than putting my money on a horse which has yet to be born.
Seeing recently how much exploded prices for literally everything - i dont think F-22 is too expencive now. Actually, it have quite resonable price. Undoubtly, it is first truly successfull stealth aircraft.
We can speculate whenever compomises made in F-117 and B-2 was worth its stealth and price. For F-22 it is clear - compomisses was minimal. F-22 flight perfomance is on par with other aircrafts of its class while being both stealth, supercruise AND resonable priced. A trully excellent achievment.
Scorpion82
New Member
I think your reply would have better suited Alex Y's comments. I see it in a similar way as you. Though there is no way of saying the Raptor isn't expensive. Is it overpriced? In comparison to the originally projected costs definitely. In relation to the cost and capability ratio of other fighters not necessarily.
Yes, F-22 is expencive. But what modern aircraft is NOT expencive? EF ? Rafale? Hell, even Su-30 is not that cheap anymore.
I highly doubt it will be the best. When was the last time Russia made a better fighter?
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