Australian M113s

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riksavage

Banned Member
Will the new versions be fitted with reactive armour similar in configeration to that used on the 'Bulldogs' (upgraded 432's), if so does anyone have any pictures?

Also what is the new top-speed of the upgraded version and how does it compare with the new MBT's Australia has just received? One assumes these will form the basis of any armoured battle group infantry element and will have to keep pace with the armour.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
riksavage said:
Will the new versions be fitted with reactive armour similar in configeration to that used on the 'Bulldogs' (upgraded 432's), if so does anyone have any pictures?

Also what is the new top-speed of the upgraded version and how does it compare with the new MBT's Australia has just received? One assumes these will form the basis of any armoured battle group infantry element and will have to keep pace with the armour.
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I don't believe the vehicles are fitted with a reactive armour kit, they've had enough troubles getting the vehicle into service in it's basic configuration...

We are still waiting for the photos of the production vehicles that have been delivered to Darwin however, to see what a production vehicle looks like, because as FT rightly pointed out, the ones released on the DoD website are a pre-production test and development vehicle...

Yes, together with the M1A1, the ASLAV and the new self propelled guns, the M113AS3/4's will form a large part of Army's mechanised battlegroup capability.
 
R

riksavage

Banned Member
The Abrams are technically the fastest tanks on the block, so in any armoured battle group they will ultimately be restricted by the speed of any accompanying APC’s, hence my question about the new AS4’s. Will they be able to keep-up?
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
riksavage said:
Will the new versions be fitted with reactive armour similar in configeration to that used on the 'Bulldogs' (upgraded 432's), if so does anyone have any pictures?

Also what is the new top-speed of the upgraded version and how does it compare with the new MBT's Australia has just received? One assumes these will form the basis of any armoured battle group infantry element and will have to keep pace with the armour.
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I only have from last year when they were testing 'fixed' breaks. It looks the same
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
riksavage said:
The Abrams are technically the fastest tanks on the block, so in any armoured battle group they will ultimately be restricted by the speed of any accompanying APC’s, hence my question about the new AS4’s. Will they be able to keep-up?
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I expect though, however I doubt Abrams will be travelling at high speed across open country and I expect the specifications of the M113 will allow it to be fast enough...
 
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Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What kind of monster engine and suspension did they put into an AS4?

With a Leo II (Which is comparable to an Abrams when it comes to cross country performance) I bypassed M113s while driving backwards...

I doubt that the AS4 is now able to accompany the Abrams when it goes on full speed cross country.

BTW, pedal to the metal is maybe more often used by tanks than one might expect.
 
K

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Waylander:
154 kW original (A1/A2)
260 kW for AS4
220 kW for German NDV2.
 
W

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for the info. Fast as always. :)

With this data I still bet that the AS4 is not going to be able to follow the Abrams.
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Waylander said:
Thanks for the info. Fast as always. :)

With this data I still bet that the AS4 is not going to be able to follow the Abrams.
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Not with that suspension, they will end up carting everyone off to the band aide tent for stitches a splints.:eek:nfloorl:

PS: A LEO 2 moves cross country a heck of alot smoother than a M1 series. I have the scars to prove that.:D
 
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AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
Bit of a rush paint job on them though. One vehicle can only be photographed from the front :)
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Is this a joke or do you seriously mean it? There are a photos of the new issue vehicle from the side. Its just most are from the front. Besides paint is not the problem with the entry into service, its been brakes. There have been a reasonable large number of M113AS4s basically ready for service except the brakes didn't work to spec. They were painted ages ago.
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
AGRA said:
Is this a joke or do you seriously mean it? There are a photos of the new issue vehicle from the side. Its just most are from the front. Besides paint is not the problem with the entry into service, its been brakes. There have been a reasonable large number of M113AS4s basically ready for service except the brakes didn't work to spec. They were painted ages ago.
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I was thinking that the Army still uses cammo templates, and these two do not appear to carry same schemes, so probably were painted at different times and not for unit issue. Maybe that policy has changed.
 
A

AGRA

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
FutureTank said:
I was thinking that the Army still uses cammo templates, and these two do not appear to carry same schemes, so probably were painted at different times and not for unit issue. Maybe that policy has changed.
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Yes but they are two different vehicles. The one on the right is an M113A1, the one on the left a M113AS4. The new M113 has a new AUSCAM scheme that will be applied to the rebuilt vehicles.
 
F

FutureTank

Banned Member
AGRA said:
Yes but they are two different vehicles. The one on the right is an M113A1, the one on the left a M113AS4. The new M113 has a new AUSCAM scheme that will be applied to the rebuilt vehicles.
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Bummer, I completely missed that! I thought hey were both from the lot of "four new M113AS4 vehicles delivered to the Australian Army". Thank you.
 
R

riksavage

Banned Member
A purely hypothetical question - Should Australia decide to deploy armour to Afghanistan and as a result decide to compliment such a move with a tracked APC (M113AS4) for supporting infantry, what further upgrades would be needed to make M113AS4 suitable for operating in the current threat environment? One assumes the M113AS4 is air-conditioned, but what about armour upgrades and electronic counter-measures etc.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
riksavage said:
A purely hypothetical question - Should Australia decide to deploy armour to Afghanistan and as a result decide to compliment such a move with a tracked APC (M113AS4) for supporting infantry, what further upgrades would be needed to make M113AS4 suitable for operating in the current threat environment? One assumes the M113AS4 is air-conditioned, but what about armour upgrades and electronic counter-measures etc.
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I expect a standoff armour package similar to the "cages" fitted to our ASLAV fleet or a reactive armour package would need to be fitted. The Israeli's I understand have a number of packages that could do the job and be procured quickly...

Also I suspect a firepower increase would be on the cards, so perhaps an RWS system mounting a 7.62m GPMG or 40mm AGL might be chosen in some cases too, in addition to the current turret.

Electronic counter measures would no doubt include the IED "jammers" and similar that are frequently being used these days and probably a SATCOM capability for the vehicles, or at least each platoon.

I imagine further electronics capabilities such as Blue Force tracker etc will probably be a "no go" because of the specified 1x driver, 1x crew commander for these vehicles...

No dedicated gunner means the crew commander has a high workload as it is in these vehicles and one person can only do so much...
 
W

winnyfield

New Member
riksavage said:
A purely hypothetical question - Should Australia decide to deploy armour to Afghanistan and as a result decide to compliment such a move with a tracked APC (M113AS4) for supporting infantry, what further upgrades would be needed to make M113AS4 suitable for operating in the current threat environment? One assumes the M113AS4 is air-conditioned, but what about armour upgrades and electronic counter-measures etc.
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For an A'stan mission, RPG and anti-mine protection will be the priority. Bar/slat armour as used on the ASLAV will likely be used against RPGs. For mines? Look to see improvements in belly armour.

Too see what the US M113s look like in Iraq, see Prime Portal and their M113s in Iraq page. (can't post a URLs yet)

It'd be worth while to check out the upgraded British M113 lookalike - FV432 Bulldog
 
R

riksavage

Banned Member
Another hypothetical scenario.

Germany is looking at leasing Marders to Greece at a good price.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3171231&C=landwar

Don't you think Aus would have been better off going with second hand IFV (Marder) instead of wasting money on the M113 APC upgrade? Surplus Leopard II's have been snapped up by several countries, so why not Marders? The IFC would have presented a much better building block for upgrades than the existing M113.

The leased Marders for Greece will be operationally functional, fully armed and will include one RH-202 MK 20mm automatic cannon, as well as a 7.62mm MG3 coaxial machine gun. If available, the vehicles also could be armed with one Milan anti-tank missile launcher. The lease rates quoted include a basic load of 300 rounds of 20mm ammunition per vehicle, to cover initial needs and training requirements.

The fact that these come complete with a 20mm primary weapon means the Aus military would just need to upgrade the armour (similar to the Bulldog), fit Aus standard comms package and air-con.

Opinions?
 
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