The point I was making was that when the project visited Flensburg the power pack the M113 was to get was not able to be inspected or run up as it did not exist. Granted the changes were not great to the current - the comparison is between the Cummins alternative that had already been thoroughly tested, to an untested new version of an MTU engine. In effect we travelled to Germany to kick the tyres, but the tyres wern't there to be kicked. And of course we chose German. What a fuck up, and it remains a fuck up 7 years later.
Australian M113s
- Thread starter Ozymandias
- Start date
MARKMILES77
Active Member
At last they are on their way. This project needs some good news!
Presumably the braking issue is resolved.
Presumably the braking issue is resolved.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Notice that little line, "provided the vehicle passes testing". It hasn't managed it to date...
I love how Army reports the diggers are "in love" with it. Course they are. All they've got to compare it to is an M113AS1. Give them choice between a Bradley/Warrior or an M113AS3/4 and not punish them for speaking honestly in public see which one they "love"...
Last edited by a moderator:
jamesteo320
New Member
Pandur II
Does anybody knows whether the amphibious version of Pandur II can be fitted with a 90mm or 105mm turret? How many troops can it carries, excluding the ifv crew?
Does anybody knows whether the amphibious version of Pandur II can be fitted with a 90mm or 105mm turret? How many troops can it carries, excluding the ifv crew?
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Not to be funny or difficult, but what does the Pandur II have to do with the Australian M113 debate/debacle?:unknown
Also, when seeking particular info on a vehicle, try Google. Often times one can locate the desired information. This is a site I turned up when I entered Pandur II into Google. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pandurII/
-Cheers
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The last word I had is that Tenix is pushing ahead with production even though the vehicle has not passed testing and is taking the risk on itself.
I suspect there are still quite a few problems to be ironed out and the in-service date has been pushed back again into mid-late 2008.
Seems like NEVER will enough for this project irregardless of how long it takes...
t68
Well-Known Member
Hi ad
Does that mean they are cutting into the hulls they dont own and hope defence will just go (AH well its done now well just take em as is jobs done stuff it )
Where does this legaly take them if defence say nope not good enough,and when is enough is enough on this s#$t fight?
REGAREDS
TOM
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I expect enough will be enough, when a Defence Minister has the backbone to make a call on this abortion of a project and decide to recommend to Cabinet's National Security Committee that it should be abandoned and a replacement project implemented immediately.Hi ad
Does that mean they are cutting into the hulls they dont own and hope defence will just go (AH well its done now well just take em as is jobs done stuff it )
Where does this legaly take them if defence say nope not good enough,and when is enough is enough on this s# fight?
REGAREDS
TOM
Considering the limited capability the vehicle will provide anyway, even IF it manages to produce a viable vehicle, I don't think Army would lose much by cancelling the upgrade now and progressing LAND 400 (armoured vehicle replacement project) immediately.
As "interim" platforms seem in vogue these days, sufficient vehicles to enable a mech battalion to deploy on ops for a period shouldn't prove too difficult or expensive and I'm sure wouldn't interfere with LAND 400 too much.
The M113AS3/4 in any case is an interim vehicle as it was only ever meant to serve to around 2015, ie: 10 years of operational service.
Instead, full capability is likely to exist for 5 or less at the current rate...
What an investment...
Just when you think the incompetence of the ADF procurement process can't get any worse, it sinks to new depths. Collins, Sea Sprites, M113s. All this time and money wasted. It seems the only time things work properly is when we buy them direct off-the-shelf, like the Abrams.
Doesn't auger well for the new AWDs.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Agreed, thought the F-100 is pretty much off the shelf, with relatively minor (hopefully!) changes to be incorporated...Just when you think the incompetence of the ADF procurement process can't get any worse, it sinks to new depths. Collins, Sea Sprites, M113s. All this time and money wasted. It seems the only time things work properly is when we buy them direct off-the-shelf, like the Abrams.
Doesn't auger well for the new AWDs.
ANAO has already "smashed" the M113 upgrade program and Land systems division with DMO generally and yet it continues to sink to new lows, as announced in the budget papers this year...
Why it has continued I will never know, particularly when the majority of the money has NOT even been spent yet...
True, it's probably just as well we didn't go with G&C, it's been set a dangerous precedent.
I suspect the continuation of the M113 program is due at least partly to political considerations, having an Australian company upgrading Australian gear in Australian facilities. The government seems to think local industry involvement is more important than having equipment delivered on time and on budget.
money money money....MONEY!
We have IMVs, someone by now should have realised that fixing an old platform with new gear doesn't work...SEASPRITE Anyone?!?
I'm still waiting on a decent announcement from the parties on Defence procurement, except for the "me-too" on current projects all it is right now is "i'll pull troops out of Iraq, except this this and this...o and they do work their too, they can stay".
Defence has already preped a few hundred M113 hulls for the M113AS3/AS4 conversion. By prepred they are reduced to parts, sandblasted, etc and ready to go through the Tenix upgrade. Which will be done by Defence employess at Bandiana, part of the reason Tenix got the deal.
The way the system works is Tenix will not be banging away on hulls until they are released by the DMO. This is part of the project management experience. Even if they did a clapped out M113A1 hull holds very little actual value anyway.Where does this legaly take them if defence say nope not good enough,and when is enough is enough on this s# fight?
Contracually if DMO were to pull the plug Tenix could have same damages they could pursue. But they wouldn't be left out of pocket or anything, just loss of further income and damage to reputation. You could say they deserve it but it was bad source selection by the DMO to chose Tenix over GDLS/BAES. The later two had a lot more AFV experience courtesy of the ASLAV program and Tenix was offering the dodgy German A3/A4 upgrade rather than the OEM A3/A4 upgrade.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Army’s Latest Fighting Vehicle Arrives At 1 Brigade
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPA 435/07 Thursday, 15 November 2007
ARMY’S LATEST FIGHTING VEHICLE ARRIVES AT 1 BRIGADE
A ceremonial handover took place at Robertson Barracks today to mark the introduction to service of the first four M113AS4 Armoured Personnel Carriers to the Army’s 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment.
One of the vehicles on display was fitted with armour, spall curtains and track shrouds to reveal the appearance of the vehicle when fitted for operations.
Soldiers of 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment, were thrilled to see the arrival of the upgraded M113; one soldier said “You can definitely notice the improvement in the performance and power of the new vehicles.”
The Commanding Officer of the 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment, Lieutenant Colonel Shane Gabriel said he was pleased to oversee the MII3AS4 arrival. “The extensive upgrade to the M113 has improved habitability, mobility and firepower of the vehicles and most importantly, provides superior protection for our troops,” LTCOL Shane Gabriel said.
The handover ceremony also highlighted the success of the joint effort between the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) and the prime contractor Tenix. The M113’s have successfully concluded a long and rigorous testing program and the ADF will receive a vehicle that delivers increased firepower, protection and mobility.
Project LAND 106 was established to deliver a major upgrade of 350 of the Army’s in-service M113A1 vehicles that provide transport and fire support for the Army’s mechanised forces. The upgrade provides significant enhancements in protection, firepower, mobility and habitability whilst also providing improved logistic supportability.
There are seven variants of the M113AS being produced. The first four being delivered to the Army’s 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (mechanised infantry), are the Armoured Personnel Carrier (M113AS4 APC). The designation AS4 (Australian Version 4) refers to the upgraded capability of the vehicle to the Australian standard as well as its increased carrying capacity. 171 APC variants will be upgraded to the 18 tonne M113AS4 standard.
Crew and maintainer training have commenced and procurement of initial spares, special tools and test equipment to support the initial introduction of vehicles has commenced and will continue in parallel with vehicle production.
Department of Defence Media Mail List
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPA 435/07 Thursday, 15 November 2007
ARMY’S LATEST FIGHTING VEHICLE ARRIVES AT 1 BRIGADE
A ceremonial handover took place at Robertson Barracks today to mark the introduction to service of the first four M113AS4 Armoured Personnel Carriers to the Army’s 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment.
One of the vehicles on display was fitted with armour, spall curtains and track shrouds to reveal the appearance of the vehicle when fitted for operations.
Soldiers of 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment, were thrilled to see the arrival of the upgraded M113; one soldier said “You can definitely notice the improvement in the performance and power of the new vehicles.”
The Commanding Officer of the 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment, Lieutenant Colonel Shane Gabriel said he was pleased to oversee the MII3AS4 arrival. “The extensive upgrade to the M113 has improved habitability, mobility and firepower of the vehicles and most importantly, provides superior protection for our troops,” LTCOL Shane Gabriel said.
The handover ceremony also highlighted the success of the joint effort between the Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) and the prime contractor Tenix. The M113’s have successfully concluded a long and rigorous testing program and the ADF will receive a vehicle that delivers increased firepower, protection and mobility.
Project LAND 106 was established to deliver a major upgrade of 350 of the Army’s in-service M113A1 vehicles that provide transport and fire support for the Army’s mechanised forces. The upgrade provides significant enhancements in protection, firepower, mobility and habitability whilst also providing improved logistic supportability.
There are seven variants of the M113AS being produced. The first four being delivered to the Army’s 7th Battalion, The Royal Australian Regiment (mechanised infantry), are the Armoured Personnel Carrier (M113AS4 APC). The designation AS4 (Australian Version 4) refers to the upgraded capability of the vehicle to the Australian standard as well as its increased carrying capacity. 171 APC variants will be upgraded to the 18 tonne M113AS4 standard.
Crew and maintainer training have commenced and procurement of initial spares, special tools and test equipment to support the initial introduction of vehicles has commenced and will continue in parallel with vehicle production.
Interesting that Defence seem to see this as an example of a successful program. I'd hate to see an unsuccessful one!
Some good photos can be found on the ADF website:
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/Nov/20071108a/index.htm
Tas
FutureTank
Banned Member
These are the "before" photos from 2 years agoInteresting that Defence seem to see this as an example of a successful program. I'd hate to see an unsuccessful one!
Some good photos can be found on the ADF website:
http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2007/Nov/20071108a/index.htm
Tas
Well spotted FT - The site calls them 'new' but the photos are shown as having been taken in 2005!These are the "before" photos from 2 years ago
Tas